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Featured The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Achilles6129, Sep 6, 2016.

  1. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    "Therefore"--is not a verse. You are making up stuff according to what you want it to say. Eternal life just that. Nowhere does it say death is separation from God. When we die our soul goes back to God----How is that separation from God??
     
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Hmmm...

    Do they indicate it or is it your interpretation of those passages that indicates it? You're bringing the same argument the others did. None of these passages states that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. That means you're drawing inferences from what you read.



    That you've posted these passages as support for the idea that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body shows that you believe that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. Since these passages don't state that you must have come to the text with that idea already. So, the premise is that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. The evidence is passages from which you've "inferred" that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. The conclusion is that there is an immaterial part of man that lives on after the death of the body. So, the conclusion is simply a restatement of the premise. That is Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning. It's the same argument that others have used. It's a logical fallacy.



    The word soul is used abstractly and translated life in the Bible. That doesn't necessitate that it lievs on after the death of the body.

    The passages you posted don't state what you claim. Therefore you've inferred your idea from them. People interpret the texts based on their presuppositions. I'll bet that before you became a Christian you believed that there was some part of man that lived on after death. Is that correct? If so, then that presupposition is being brought to the Biblical texts rather that being drawn from them.

    Since won't elaborate on the passages I'm not going to spend a lot of time addressing them. As I said, if you pick one and elaborate on it we can discuss it.

    Here's one of them.

    9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"


    Revelation is a book full of symbolism. Since you claim is that this passage proves that there is some part of man that lives on after the death of the body, you need to prove that that is possible. Since the dead are dead this is obviously figurative language. After all, these are martyrs and the definition of a martyr is one who has died.

    Luke 20:37-38 (NKJV)
    37 But even Moses showed in the burning
    bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."


    The context of this passage is the Resurrection.

    33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
    34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
    37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
    38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
    (Lk. 20:33-38 KJV)

    Jesus points out that Moses showed that the dead are raised. This is about the resurrection, not the state of the dead before the Resurrection. Notice Luke records, "for all live unto him." From God's perspective all live. Why is that? Because God is the source of life and will raise all again.

    All of the passages you posted can be addressed as these have. As I said, none of the passages states plainly what you claimed, therefore, it's an inference.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  3. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    wow, I don't even know anymore how to make you understand such easy concepts...I mean these are basic things...try these passages on for size....remember, before you change your mind again, you want me to show that the wicked/unbeliever is separated from God.

    Isaiah 59:2
    Jeremiah 6:8
    Ezekiel 14:5
    Ezekiel 14:7
    Ezekiel 4:3
    Romans 11:17
    Romans 11:19
    Romans 11:22
    Galatians 5:4
    Romans 9:3
    Ephesians 2:12
    2 Thessalonians 1:9
    God (4986 instances)

    From Thematic Bible
    Consequences of sin » death » Physical » Spiritual » Separation from God
    Error » Sin's penalty » Separation from God
    Sin » Penalty for » Separation from God
    Sins » Penalty » Separation from God
    Transgression » Sin's penalty » Separation from God
    Consequences of sin » death » Physical » Spiritual » Separation from God
    Isaiah 59:2
    Exodus 33:3
    Joshua 7:11-12

    "Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I commanded them. And they have even taken some of the things under the ban and have both stolen and deceived. Moreover, they have also put them among their own things. "Therefore the sons of Israel cannot stand before their enemies; they turn their backs before their enemies, for they have become accursed. I will not be with you anymore unless you destroy the things under the ban from your midst.

    Psalm 66:18
    Isaiah 64:7
    Hosea 5:6
    Error » Sin's penalty » Separation from God
    Isaiah 59:2
    Exodus 33:3
    Joshua 7:11-12

    "Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I commanded them. And they have even taken some of the things under the ban and have both stolen and deceived. Moreover, they have also put them among their own things. "Therefore the sons of Israel cannot stand before their enemies; they turn their backs before their enemies, for they have become accursed. I will not be with you anymore unless you destroy the things under the ban from your midst.

    Psalm 66:18
    Isaiah 64:7
    Hosea 5:6
    Sin » Penalty for » Separation from God
    Isaiah 59:2
    Exodus 33:3
    Joshua 7:11-12

    "Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I commanded them. And they have even taken some of the things under the ban and have both stolen and deceived. Moreover, they have also put them among their own things. "Therefore the sons of Israel cannot stand before their enemies; they turn their backs before their enemies, for they have become accursed. I will not be with you anymore unless you destroy the things under the ban from your midst.

    Psalm 66:18
    Isaiah 64:7
    Hosea 5:6
    Sins » Penalty » Separation from God
    Isaiah 59:2
    Exodus 33:3
    Joshua 7:11-12

    "Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I commanded them. And they have even taken some of the things under the ban and have both stolen and deceived. Moreover, they have also put them among their own things. "Therefore the sons of Israel cannot stand before their enemies; they turn their backs before their enemies, for they have become accursed. I will not be with you anymore unless you destroy the things under the ban from your midst.

    Psalm 66:18
    Isaiah 64:7
    Hosea 5:6
    Transgression » Sin's penalty » Separation from God
    Isaiah 59:2
    Exodus 33:3
    Joshua 7:11-12

    "Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I commanded them. And they have even taken some of the things under the ban and have both stolen and deceived. Moreover, they have also put them among their own things. "Therefore the sons of Israel cannot stand before their enemies; they turn their backs before their enemies, for they have become accursed. I will not be with you anymore unless you destroy the things under the ban from your midst.

    Psalm 66:18
    Isaiah 64:7
    Hosea 5:6

    I realize this is the lazy way to deal with this, but it saves a lot of time since you refuse to deal with the scripture that are presented to you anyway.
     
  4. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I've complained about it for months----nothing, apparently they can do. I have tried so many times to sign in that it goes into block because of too many failed attempts! I finally clicked on the stay logged in --and just stayed on. I don't log off, when I turn off the computer that way when I go back to the site, I will still be logged in. I don't like doing that as I end up having computer problems and have to clean up more often. I finally had to log out and turn everything off today to clear yo the problems----it took about 6-7 attempts to log back in.
     
  5. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I presented a passage that says God gives them a NEW Spirit and ask you all to explain it and no one would. How can He give us a new spirit if there isn't one to start out with?
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    To study doesn't simply mean read a commentary. One of the big problems is that people don't study the Bible as much as they simply read commentaries. A commentary is just someone else's opinion of what the Scripture means.

    Let's look at the passage you posted. You underlined the phrase "the fire is not quenched." Does this prove your argument? The word quench means to put out. No one is going to put out that fire. That doesn't mean it won't go out on it's own. No one will quench it, put it out.

    When studying a doctrine all of the passages pertaining to the doctrine must be reconciled.
     
  7. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    one of the problems many people have with studying scripture you demonstrate here....they twist themselves in knots trying to justify their position by twisting word meaning and removing literary rules for comprehension in order to justify
     
  8. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    What passage is that ?
     
  9. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    As I said before you ad hominems do nothing to further your argument. All they do is add to the multitude of fallacies already in the thread.
     
  10. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    :doh::doh::doh:You are so bent on having these read the way you want that you can't even see that every single one of those instances is talking about people that are ALIVE---not dead!
    From the moment Adam and Eve sinned, they became separated from God. They never again had the same access to Him, He talked to them, but never again did they see Him. SIN IS SEPERATION FROM GOD---NOT DEATH. Death is ceasing to exist, the soul goes back to God---your soul, as you keep insisting---is in God at death----that is definitely not separation from God.
     
  11. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I'm ignoring the previous couple of posts as just your failed attempts to flame me. As to the rest of this, tell me what separated them from God...according to the passages...when you answer a few questions we will go back and look at the passages individually. First though, answer some basic comprehension questions about the passages presented.

    Question 1...what separated man from God?
    Question 2...according to ECT doctrine and the passage you have been shown about hell, who goes to hell and why?

    When you answer these questions we can move on, as scripture says, precept upon precept.
     
  12. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Why are you asking what I already stated? I already said, and every single one of those verses will state----sin is separation from God, from which you can come back when you repent. As those verses about Israel attest to. When they repented. God no longer hid Himself from them. Death is the soul goes bsck to God from whence it came.
    OK---0I am going to have to clean and shut down again---0I can't go back to correct mistakes---this site is messing up my computer.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    First, the majority of God's Word does not specifically say that the wicked will burn alive in flames for all time. Revelation 14:10-11 is the only passage that appears to say that at first glance (of which I explain below). Inferences or assumptions are made on the words used within a select few small verses (without looking at how those words are used elsewhere in Scripture).

    Second, the fire is "everlasting" and or "unquenchable" for the amount of time that the Lake of Fire exists. But the Lake of Fire will not exist for all eternity. How so? Well, in the future, "...God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4). "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;.." (Revelation 21:1). The Lake of Fire is a part of the old heavens and old Earth and not the New Heavens and New Earth.

    But how can the words like "forever" and "everlasting" be used in a temporal sense?

    Well, in the Bible, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.
    For it says,

    "For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;"
    (Philemon 1:15 KJV).​

    This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

    15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
    16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
    (Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).​

    In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means.

    But what about words like "for ever and ever"? Surely this must be talking about an endless eternity, right? Again, this would not be true according to the Bible. For Jeremiah 7 says,

    "Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever." (Jeremiah 7:7).​

    Are we to assume that certain faithful Old Testament saints will dwell in the land here upon this Earth forever and ever while the rest of the saints dwell upon the New Earth? Surely not. "For ever and ever" is used in context to how long that promise will be fulfilled and will last (Which would be with the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ).

    Are you still not convinced?

    There are other examples where the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

    Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.

    It tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

    In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

    • In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

    • The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

    • Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

    • Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

    • The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

    • Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

    • An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

    • Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

    • The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

    • Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

    • The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

    • The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

    • The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
    Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

    • God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

    • "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

    • Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

    • The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

    • “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 (as mentioned above) where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​


    Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
    http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

    Side Note:

    But what about those who worship the beast as not having rest day and night in Revelation 14:11? Well, this is saying that those who worship the beast will have no rest day and night WHILE or DURING the TIME they worship the beast. For Revelation 16:2 says they had painful boils.


    ...
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    New doesn't mean different. You see, in modern American when people say a new one, they often mean a different one. However, the word new doesn't mean different. However, the Greek word also means fresh. We see in the Scriptures that God will make a new heavens and new earth. Many people think this means that God is going to destroy the present ones and created different ones. However, that's not the case. Peter said,

    19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
    20 "and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before1,
    21 "whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
    (Acts 3:19-21 NKJ)

    The new heavens and the new earth are a restored heavens and earth. They are made new or fresh.

    3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
    4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
    5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me1, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." (Rev. 21:3-5 NKJ)

    Notice He said, "I make all things new."

    The passage in Ezekiel is talking about the resurrection which can be seen in the promises and the following chapter 37. So, Even if the passage did refer to a different spirit we see that in the Resurrection that God will bring their bodies out of the grave and once again put into them the breath or spirit of life. Remember the breath or spirit of life returned to God when they died. At the resurrection they will received God's spirit or breath of life again.
     
  15. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    No, that's not at all what I believe. Not sure how you got that from the post. I absolutely believe he is the sacrificial lamb, and have posted such and backed his sacrifice, not only for we who believe, but those who haven't yet;

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    He paid the price due us, for sin. And according to 'orthodoxy' that price is eternal hell, or according to others here, it is 'annihilation'. So if 'that' is the price we're to pay, if we don't accept Him, then why didn't he ever pay that price? Why isn't he 'sitting in eternal hell' or floating with emails in 'annihilation space', paying 'the price' in our place??? The reason He isn't, is because 'they' were never the price to begin with, except in the doctrines of carnal minded men seeking political/religious control over the world.

    Hope that clears up any confusion. :idea:
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Butch. You are too much. The only reason you believe what you say is that you in fact read someone's commentaries!!! You see brother, there are NO Bible Scriptures to support your opinion, therefore the only way you came up with it is that you read commentaries and web sites that question the truth of God's Word.

    This is exactly why I said that you are not able to grasp this truth. Even when presented exactly what you asked for, you reject it and come up with another far out excuse from a skeptics web site.

    Please give it a rest my brother. Every body knows what the phrase "the fire is not quenched" means, even you. YOU know what it means when the Scriptures say "tormented forever and ever, but you simply can not accept and believe the Word of God. Therefore you must continue to come up with these kind of arguments. Do you realize how foolish this makes you look??????
     
  17. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    That's a rather bold statement coming from someone who has yet to make a logical argument. No matter how you try you can't make the case for eternal torment. The word quench means to extinguish. Jesus said the wicked would suffer aionios punishment. This is translated a everlasting.

    46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46 NKJ)

    A few verses prior He said what that aionios punishment would be.

    41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matt. 25:41 NKJ)

    So, the aionios punishment is aionios fire. Lets see if that is everlasting.

    6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
    7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:6-7 NKJ)

    Sodom and Gomorrah are an example, they suffered aionios fire. Can anyone see Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today? NO! If you go over to the middle east are they still there on fire? NO! They are burned up. Thus aionios fire is "NOT" burning eternally. Thus "aionios" does "NOT" means eternal.

    Your argument is based on a poor translation of the word aionios.
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Hope that clears up any confusion. You are kidding us, right????

    Your comment of......"And according to 'orthodoxy' that price is eternal hell" is so far from truth that I am actually embarrassed for you to have said such a thing.

    No where is it said or even mentioned that God's demand for the payment of mans sin be that Jesus would be sitting in hell as you just stated.

    Romans 3:25 tells us that the price that had to be paid was BLOOD. The only thing that god would accept was the BLOOD...........speaking of Christ the Scriptures say clearly,
    "Whom God hath set forth to be the propitiation through faith IN HIS BLOOD to declare his righteousness for the REMISSION OF SINS that are past through the forbearance of God".

    No wonder you come up with so much un-biblical comments and opinions. You simply do not understand the Scriptures.

    The only way God deals with our sin is through the blood of the Lamb of God and not Jesus sitting in hell.

    Levitucus 17:11.........
    "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life."

    My dear friend. The shed blood of the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ satisfied the demand of God for righteousness.

    This is why Jesus killed the animals in the Garden of Eden. Blood had to be shed to cover the sin of Adam and Eve.
    This is why blood from a sacrifice was applied to the door posts at the 1st Passover. Blood had to be shed.

    In the Scriptures, the means of atonement was the offering of a bloody sacrifice. God is seen providing the sacrifice and man performing the rite. Man is not seen initiating the relationship, but God. God made the provision for sin in an act of grace. The shedding of blood is the central action in making atonement for sin. This theme is developed through out the Scriptures.

    What that means my friend is that every bloody sacrifice made in the Old Test. was pointing to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who would shed His blood for all of humanity that by faith would believe upon Him as their Saviour.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Do you believe there will one day be a separate and different New Heavens and New Earth from this one (after the Millennium)? Meaning, do you believe there will be a completely new and different planet for the saints?

    ...
     
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