The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[razzelflabben]

One thing I am wondering...Yes, I love questions and answers...is why people think that heaven is literal but hell is figurative, where does this "teaching" come from and if anyone says, "scripture" I think I will punch the closest person to me...I need more than just "scripture teaches..." I actually need scripture

 

[razzelflabben]

Scripture can say lots of things to people. The real test is the fruit. The morality or goodness behind your belief.
I want you to demonstrate for me in how ECT is moral and good? How is burning people who commit a finite amount of sin for all eternity fair, just, loving, and good? Please use a real world example to help illustrate this. Also, please do not allegorize your real world example, too. If you can't do that, then there is nothing left to discuss. For we can keep going back and forth with Scripture and never reach a conclusion (because we both believe our own interpretation of Scripture is the correct view). For I have demonstrated why your interpretation on the text is not correct, but you are unwilling to see it. So I am appealing to moral compass. The question is: Is it still working at it's full capacity?



...

I did this and you refused to address it...in fact, no one would address or challenge it

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your response is exactly what I expected my brother. You gave your opinions my brother of what YOU think and want to believe. People who reject eternal torments always fall back to trying to parse and define certain words such as "Forever: and "Eternal" and so on.

I am not being critical of your response, just stating a fact. Why is this?

You see, the Bible makes it clear that hell is a literal place. Christ spoke more about hell than He did of heaven. Not only Satan and his minions will be punished there, everyone who rejects Jesus Christ will spend eternity right along with them. A desire to reject or revise the doctrine of hell will not mitigate its flames or make the place go away. Still, the idea of eternal damnation is rejected my a lot of people and you are just one of them it seems. Again, the question must be asked, WHY?

Allow me to give you some reasons. Now these are in general and are not directed at you personally.

1). A loved one has died as a lost person.
A wife, or husband, or parent or child dies lost and our brain can not accept the Bible truth that they will be tormented eternally. So we work to come up with answers and excuses which would allow us to accept their death as a lost person.

2). The influence of contemporary thought.
In this modern time, many go to great lengths to assure no one is offended, and the biblical doctrine of hell is considered offensive. It is too harsh, too old-fashioned, too insensitive. The wisdom of this world is focused on this life, with no thought of the life to come.

3). Fear.
Never-ending, conscious punishment devoid of any hope is indeed a frightening prospect. Many people would rather ignore the source of fear than face it and deal with it biblically. The fact is, hell should be frightening, considering it is the place of judgment originally created for the devil and his angels.

4). A flawed view of God’s love.
Many who reject the idea of eternal damnation do so because they find it difficult to believe that a loving God could banish people to a place as horrific as hell for all eternity.
5). A downplaying of sin.
Some find it shockingly unfair that the recompense for a mere lifetime of sinning should be an eternal punishment. Others reject the idea of hell because, in their minds, sin isn’t all that bad.

6). Aberrant theories.
Another reason people reject the concept of eternal damnation is that they have been taught alternative theories. One such theory is universalism, which says that everyone will eventually make it to heaven. Another theory is annihilationism, in which the existence of hell is acknowledged, but its eternal nature is denied. Both of these are not found anywhere in the Scriptures so they become wishes and not truth.

7). Incomplete teaching.
Many contemporary pastors who do believe in the doctrine of hell consider it simply too delicate a subject to preach on. This further contributes to the modern denial of hell. http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-damnation.html

No one has to agree with any of that. IMHO, to contradict the Bible’s teaching on hell is to say, essentially, “If I were God, I would not make hell like that.” The problem with such a mindset is its inherent pride—it smugly suggests that we can improve on God’s plan. However, we are not wiser than God; we are not more loving or more just.

Please address the verses and or points I made with Scripture.



...

 

[razzelflabben]

can we play a thought experiment out and see where it leads us? What happens to our understanding of heaven if we apply the same arguments against scripture about heaven that we do about hell...for example, if we don't have an eternal part of man, how does that affect our understanding of heaven...or if death means only what our physical understanding of death is, then we could say the same for life, which would mean that heaven is not eternal anymore....things like that...anyone up for the challenge?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Someone who is "destroyed" is not, cannot be "from the presence of God" or anything else.

Except when the word translated "destruction" doesn't mean destruction. ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned]. ​

"The second death" does not necessarily mean death, i.e. the end of life. Many words are used figuratively in the Bible. For example, Herod was not literally a fox but Jesus called him one. Simon was not literally a rock but Jesus called him "Petros/rock." James and John were not literally "sons of thunder" but Jesus called them that.
.....The lake of fire [LoF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LoF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also know that being thrown into the LoF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LoF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LoF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LoF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LoF then they/it dies.

But the second death is called the second death because it is related to the first death (Revelation 21:8).
Just as Jesus destroying the soul is related to man destroying the body (Matthew 10:28).
As for the "everlasting punishment" described in Matthew 25:46: Well, one has to look elsewhere in Scripture to find out the type of punishment that is being talked about. Paul says it is "everlasting destruction." 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (just as there is an "Eternal Judgment"). So the destruction and judgment is not ongoing. The destruction and judgment happen once and have everlasting or eternal consequences. Nothing in Matthew 25:46 suggests that the wicked are roasting alive in hell-fire. Everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death or destruction or annihiation. Just as day is contrasted with night. It would not make any sense to contrast everlasting life with everlasting life.

As for being destroyed away from the presence of God: I can throw some papers into my fireplace and walk away and go to the bathroom and they can be destroyed without my presence being there to watch it.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Then in as much Christian love that I can come up with and with all due respect to you, you my dear brother have come across some very wrong teachings from man or men. You did not come up with your thinking from the Word of God as what you are saying is not found in the Scriptures.

Now I just like you have the ability to make any verse in the Bible say what I am convinced it says to me. However, that is not correct Bible exegesis. It is the "Cafeteria" style of learning. In other words, I will pick and choose what I like and leave the things I do not like alone.

Believe me brother, I do not like the Bible fact that the lost person is tormented eternally. In fact I hate it!
Listen, I was destroyed that FSU lost 63 to 20 last Sat. But you know what??? The score still stands!!!
I have several family members who died lost. I have many right now that if they die today, they will go to hell as well.
BUT.........That does not change the fact that the Bible and especially the Lord Jesus Christ taught us that there is in fact a hell that torments the lost eternally.

The truth is that I am just not smart enough to argue with God.

Please address the verses I posted instead of mere opinion.

Thank you.


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[razzelflabben]

Please address the verses I posted instead of mere opinion.

Thank you.


...

do you want me to address them? Not a single one of the passages you posted in your last post with passages says or suggests what you are trying to extract out of it. If you want to talk to me, I will go through each one individually with you but since you can't respond to me, we will just leave it there, right?!

 

[Der Alte]

But the second death is called the second death because it is related to the first death (Revelation 21:8).

Rev 21:8 says nothing about the second death being related to the first death.

Just as Jesus destroying the soul is related to man destroying the body (Matthew 10:28).

What God created He can certainly destroy. But there is not one verse which states that a single soul has been or will be destroyed.

As for the "everlasting punishment" described in Matthew 25:46: Well, one has to look elsewhere in Scripture to find out the type of punishment that is being talked about. Paul says it is "everlasting destruction." 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (just as there is an "Eternal Judgment"). So the destruction and judgment is not ongoing. The destruction and judgment happen once and have everlasting or eternal consequences. Nothing in Matthew 25:46 suggests it is roasting alive in hell-fire. Everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death or destruction or annihiation. Just as day is contrasted with night.

...

Justin Martyr- First Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass.
And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; " and then shall they repent, when it profits them not
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753
Justin Martyr First Apology Chapter 19
And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that “what is impossible with men is possible with God,” and, “Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.” And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass
Justin Martyr- Second Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire,
A certain woman lived with an intemperate husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.
But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.
And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. I or thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach.14
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753
Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 63
In the Apocalypse also, we read the anger of the Lord threatening, and saying, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God mixed in the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever; neither shall they have rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image.”
2. Since, therefore, the Lord threatens these torments, these punishments in the day of judgment, to those who obey the devil and sacrifice to idols, how does he think that he can act as a priest of God who has obeyed and served the priests of the devil; . .
Cyprian Epistle 30 Chapter 7
He has prepared heaven, but He has also prepared hell. He has prepared places of refreshment, but He has also prepared eternal punishment. He has prepared the light that none can approach unto, but He has also prepared the vast and eternal gloom of perpetual night.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Refutation of all Heresies Book 9 Chapter 23
But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unquenchable fire.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato 3
Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is unquenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.
Tatian’s [A.D. 110-172] Address Chapter 13
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.
Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] De Principiis Part First
the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. The philosophers are familiar as well as we with the distinction between a common and a secret fire. Thus that which is in common use is far different from that which we see in divine judgments, whether striking as thunderbolts from heaven, or bursting up out of the earth through mountain-tops; for it does not consume what it scorches, but while it burns it repairs. So the mountains continue ever burning; and a person struck by lighting is even now kept safe from any destroying flame. A notable proof this of the fire eternal a notable example of the endless judgment which still supplies punishment with fuel! The mountains burn, and last. How will it be with the wicked and the enemies of God?
Origen [A.D. 185-230-254] De Principiis Book 2 Chapter 3
nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.
Minucius Felix [A.D. 210] The Octavius Chapter 35
Nor is there either measure or termination to these torments. There the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them, feeds on them and nourishes them. As the fires of the thunderbolts strike upon the bodies, and do not consume them; as the fires of Mount Aetna and of Mount Vesuvius, and of burning lands everywhere, glow, but are not wasted; so that penal fire is not fed by the waste of those who burn, but is nourished by the unexhausted eating away of their bodies.​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rev 21:8 says nothing about the second death being related to the first death.

What God created He can certainly destroy. But there is not one verse which states that a single soul has been or will be destroyed.

Justin Martyr- First Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass.
And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; " and then shall they repent, when it profits them not
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753
Justin Martyr First Apology Chapter 19
And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that “what is impossible with men is possible with God,” and, “Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.” And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass
Justin Martyr- Second Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire,
A certain woman lived with an intemperate husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.
But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.
And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. I or thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach.14
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753
Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 63
In the Apocalypse also, we read the anger of the Lord threatening, and saying, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God mixed in the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever; neither shall they have rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image.”
2. Since, therefore, the Lord threatens these torments, these punishments in the day of judgment, to those who obey the devil and sacrifice to idols, how does he think that he can act as a priest of God who has obeyed and served the priests of the devil; . .
Cyprian Epistle 30 Chapter 7
He has prepared heaven, but He has also prepared hell. He has prepared places of refreshment, but He has also prepared eternal punishment. He has prepared the light that none can approach unto, but He has also prepared the vast and eternal gloom of perpetual night.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Refutation of all Heresies Book 9 Chapter 23
But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unquenchable fire.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato 3
Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is unquenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.
Tatian’s [A.D. 110-172] Address Chapter 13
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.
Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] De Principiis Part First
the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. The philosophers are familiar as well as we with the distinction between a common and a secret fire. Thus that which is in common use is far different from that which we see in divine judgments, whether striking as thunderbolts from heaven, or bursting up out of the earth through mountain-tops; for it does not consume what it scorches, but while it burns it repairs. So the mountains continue ever burning; and a person struck by lighting is even now kept safe from any destroying flame. A notable proof this of the fire eternal a notable example of the endless judgment which still supplies punishment with fuel! The mountains burn, and last. How will it be with the wicked and the enemies of God?
Origen [A.D. 185-230-254] De Principiis Book 2 Chapter 3
nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.
Minucius Felix [A.D. 210] The Octavius Chapter 35
Nor is there either measure or termination to these torments. There the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them, feeds on them and nourishes them. As the fires of the thunderbolts strike upon the bodies, and do not consume them; as the fires of Mount Aetna and of Mount Vesuvius, and of burning lands everywhere, glow, but are not wasted; so that penal fire is not fed by the waste of those who burn, but is nourished by the unexhausted eating away of their bodies.​

We have to understand that God is a God of order and logic. If God was not orderly in the way He does things, then God would be the author of confusion. But this is not the case. God does things that makes sense whereby we can explain them. Usually when something is within a series of numbers, they are related to one another in some way. Take for example: There are two covenants. The first is related to the second in the fact that the second is a fulfillment of the first covenant. If the 2nd Covenant was totally unlike the 1st Covenant in every respect and way, it wouldn't make sense to call it the second Covenant (unless the first one was a mistake or some kind of experiment to get it right a second time). But God doesn't make mistakes. Both Covenants are related to each other.

This is why we can say the second death is related to the first death. If something was unlike the first death and it was completely new and different, then it would not be called the second death. It would have a new name. Comparisons are made because they are related. If I count a sequence of ducks,

Duck #1
Duck #2
Duck #3

They are all ducks. They are related to each other.
But if there was a robot duck. Well, I would not list in that group.
For it is not really a duck. It's a robot. The same is true if you say the second death is not really like the death of the first one. The same is also true if you ignore how those who kill the body is a contrast to Jesus killing the soul, too. Jesus is really killing the soul just a man can kill the body. That's the comparison or contrast or parallel.


...

 

[Hillsage]

Believe me brother, I do not like the Bible fact that the lost person is tormented eternally. In fact I hate it!
Listen, I was destroyed that FSU lost 63 to 20 last Sat.

I do wish you'd have said 'you' were "tormented" along with being "destroyed" in that loss. If you had, I'd be able to say Hell must not be such a bad after all. Just a place where one's butt gets kicked....I'm sorry....where one is "smote in the hinderparts" by God until His will be accomplished in victory, as He intended through his commission to Jesus.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him".

And here I was always taught that the definition of sin was 'falling short of the mark'. Guess Jesus got a bye on that definition, because almost all of God's loved ones in the world are headed for ETERNAL HELL according to your belief. And, just as Jesus got a bye on sin's definition, He also apparently got a bye on orthodoxies judgment for the unsaved, that being ETERNAL TORTURE IN HELL....I say 'that' because 'I personally' don't believe Jesus is paying 'that price' in my place, THANK GOD. Nor do I believe He is paying that price for anyone else, for that matter. THANK GOD again.

 

[Der Alte]

We have to understand that God is a God of order and logic. If God was not orderly in the way He does things, then God would be the author of confusion. But this is not the case. God does things that makes sense whereby we can explain them. Usually when something is within a series of numbers, they are related to one another in some way. Take for example: There are two covenants. The first is related to the second in the fact that the second is a fulfillment of the first covenant. If the 2nd Covenant was totally unlike the 1st Covenant in every respect and way, it wouldn't make sense to call it the second Covenant (unless the first one was a mistake or some kind of experiment to get it right a second time). But God doesn't make mistakes. Both Covenants are related to each other.
This is why we can say the second death is related to the first death. If something was unlike the first death and it was completely new and different, then it would not be called the second death. It would have a new name. Comparisons are made because they are related. If I count a sequence of ducks,
Duck #1
Duck #2
Duck #3
They are all ducks. They are related to each other.
But if there was a robot duck. Well, I would not list in that group.
For it is not really a duck. It's a robot. The same is true if you say the second death is not really like the death of the first one. The same is also true if you ignore how those who kill the body is a contrast to Jesus killing the soul, too. Jesus is really killing the soul just a man can kill the body. That's the comparison or contrast or parallel.
...

Arguments and rationalizations not evidence.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do personally' don't believe Jesus is paying 'that price' in my place, THANK GOD. Nor do I believe He is paying that price for anyone else, for that matter. THANK GOD again.

Well, Jesus surely died in my place and the paid the price for my past sins (Isaiah 53:5) (2 Corinthians 5:21) (1 Peter 2:24) (1 Corinthians 5:7-8) (1 Corinthians 6:20) (1 John 1:7) (John 1:29) (1 John 2:2) (Acts 20:28). Hallelujah!



...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Arguments and rationalizations not evidence.

Keyword word here is "rational." When we think rationally about things it is not wrong. God wants us to think rationally when it comes to understanding His Word. For God is not the author of confusion.


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[mmksparbud]

I am still waiting for the verse that says eternal life is given to the lost. Where does it say--everyone gets eternal life, the only thing that is different is the environment?

 

[Major1]

I do wish you'd have said 'you' were "tormented" along with being "destroyed" in that loss. If you had, I'd be able to say Hell must not be such a bad after all. Just a place where one's butt gets kicked....I'm sorry....where one is "smote in the hinderparts" by God until His will be accomplished in victory, as He intended through his commission to Jesus.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him".

And here I was always taught that the definition of sin was 'falling short of the mark'. Guess Jesus got a bye on that definition, because almost all of God's loved ones in the world are headed for ETERNAL HELL according to your belief. And, just as Jesus got a bye on sin's definition, He also apparently got a bye on orthodoxies judgment for the unsaved, that being ETERNAL TORTURE IN HELL....I say 'that' because 'I personally' don't believe Jesus is paying 'that price' in my place, THANK GOD. Nor do I believe He is paying that price for anyone else, for that matter. THANK GOD again.

My dear friend. You do have a sad testimony. And it is obvious you have done little to none in Bible study.
The truth is that I do not have a belief. I have an understanding of what the Lord Jesus actually did say on hell and being the old country boy that I am, I am just dumb enough to believe Him. It is actually just that simple!!!!

It seems though that you are smarter than God by your posting. How sad for you.

What did Jesus actually say????/

Luke 16:24.........
"And he cried out sand said, father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and COOL MY TONGUE, for I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME".

 

[Major1]

I am still waiting for the verse that says eternal life is given to the lost. Where does it say--everyone gets eternal life, the only thing that is different is the environment?

Agreed. We all have eternal life with only difference being where. Heaven for the saved and hell for the lost.

 

[Major1]

Keyword word here is "rational." When we think rationally about things it is not wrong. God wants us to think rationally when it comes to understanding His Word. For God is not the author of confusion.


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Not so Jason. It does not matter one little bit what we think. Our thoughts have nothing to do with this. All that matters is what God has said.

 

[Major1]

Well, Jesus surely died in my place and the paid the price for my past sins (Isaiah 53:5) (2 Corinthians 5:21) (1 Peter 2:24) (1 Corinthians 5:7-8) (1 Corinthians 6:20) (1 John 1:7) (John 1:29) (1 John 2:2) (Acts 20:28). Hallelujah!



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Now there is something we can agree on!

 

[Major1]

Please address the verses I posted instead of mere opinion.

Thank you.


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If you need Bible verses explained, please post them and address your posting to me, please.

I do not want to walk over someones else who you have asked questions of but I will be glad to answer your questions.

 

[He Connects Us]

Growing up Methodist the teaching was that your rejection of God will be your personal Hell. Imagine going to a Rock concert but not liking loud music. If you reject God he will be that loud music to you.