The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[razzelflabben]

Finnally!! You get it!! It is eternal life and eternal death----life, death. Great!

you have been told this from the beginning but you still don't understand it according to your posts and your consistent avoidance of the passages that show you wrong...so your mocking here only shows your ignorance of what is being said and nothing more...well, I take that back, it also shows your unwillingness to consider what scripture really does say on that matter.

 

[aiki]

Now, the "everlasting punishment" is said to be "everlasting destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which is death.

Well, we know that death does not mean utter extinction since our first, physical death is followed by a second death. Scripture often uses terms like "death," "destruction," "perish" and "destroy" to describe ruination, or a total loss of well-being, or being rendered powerless or separated from something, not annihilation. We know also that since the second death is to be a punishment, and punishments entail consciousness, the second death cannot mean "annihilation." However, then, you want to read 2 Thessalonians 1:9, you are prevented from reading the "everlasting destruction" of which it speaks as "annihilation."

Anyways, if ECT was true, the verse would say,

"And these shall go away into everlasting life to be tortured in flames: but the righteous into life eternal to be in peaceful bliss."
(Matthew 25:46 ECT Influenced Translation).

But Christ does speak of the flames eternal Hell in other places:

Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8
8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Why would the fire need to be everlasting if it annihilates those who are cast into it? Surely, the fires of Hell should only last as long as it takes to annihilate the unrepentant wicked - if annihilation is true. But the apostle John writes,

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Ah, so at least some of those cast into Hell will suffer in it forever. This, it seems to me, seriously weakens the idea of the second death being annihilation and strengthens the idea that the "second death" actually means "ruination, or the total loss of well being."

In any case, it is unreasonable to argue that the absence of an explicit description of just the sort that you would like means ECT is not intended. If we handled Scripture this way, the Trinitarian nature of God could be rejected, too.

In fact, no verse in Scripture says that the wicked have eternal life or immortality.

No verse in Scripture declares the Godhead a Trinity, either. No verse explicitly forbids locking your grandmother in a closet for a week, or poking out the eyes of stray cats, but we know these are acts that are wrong, that God would reject as evil, nonetheless. In the case of ECT, there are many verses which, at the very least, clearly imply the immortality of the wicked.

But assumptions are made whereby it turns God into being some kind of non-stop angry kind of God who is beyond any kind of fair justice.

This is a Strawman. I don't think of God in anything like the way you've described Him here. I believe the Bible clearly teaches ECT, but I don't think of God as angry in the way a human person is angry. God isn't human - obviously - so working from human behaviour to divine behaviour is a BIG mistake. If God is angry, it is in a perfectly appropriate way, utterly devoid of the things that make our anger less than righteous and good. And ECT isn't a testament to God's unfairness but to the terrible vileness of our sin. Really, what is unreasonable is a sinner expecting that a perfectly pure and holy God should take his view of what proper, "fair" punishment of sin should be!

But what about the loving God who is long suffering and not willing that any should PERISH? What about the God who so loved the world?

What about Him? ECT does not preclude or deny such a God. There is salvation for all who would take it. God does love the World. But His love is bounded by His moral uprightness, His perfect purity, which is why we need salvation in the first place!

Romans 2:4-10
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

God rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked. Love that turns a blind eye to sin, that lets the wicked off scot-free, that neglects to judge and punish evil, is not really love.

Selah.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well, we know that death does not mean utter extinction since our first, physical death is followed by a second death. Scripture often uses terms like "death," "destruction," "perish" and "destroy" to describe ruination, or a total loss of well-being, or being rendered powerless or separated from something, not annihilation. We know also that since the second death is to be a punishment, and punishments entail consciousness, the second death cannot mean "annihilation." However, then, you want to read 2 Thessalonians 1:9, you are prevented from reading the "everlasting destruction" of which it speaks as "annihilation."



But Christ does speak of the flames eternal Hell in other places:

Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8
8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

Why would the fire need to be everlasting if it annihilates those who are cast into it? Surely, the fires of Hell should only last as long as it takes to annihilate the unrepentant wicked - if annihilation is true. But the apostle John writes,

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Ah, so at least some of those cast into Hell will suffer in it forever. This, it seems to me, seriously weakens the idea of the second death being annihilation and strengthens the idea that the "second death" actually means "ruination, or the total loss of well being."

In any case, it is unreasonable to argue that the absence of an explicit description of just the sort that you would like means ECT is not intended. If we handled Scripture this way, the Trinitarian nature of God could be rejected, too.



No verse in Scripture declares the Godhead a Trinity, either. No verse explicitly forbids locking your grandmother in a closet for a week, or poking out the eyes of stray cats, but we know these are acts that are wrong, that God would reject as evil, nonetheless. In the case of ECT, there are many verses which, at the very least, clearly imply the immortality of the wicked.



This is a Strawman. I don't think of God in anything like the way you've described Him here. I believe the Bible clearly teaches ECT, but I don't think of God as angry in the way a human person is angry. God isn't human - obviously - so working from human behaviour to divine behaviour is a BIG mistake. If God is angry, it is in a perfectly appropriate way, utterly devoid of the things that make our anger less than righteous and good. And ECT isn't a testament to God's unfairness but to the terrible vileness of our sin. Really, what is unreasonable is a sinner expecting that a perfectly pure and holy God should take his view of what proper, "fair" punishment of sin should be!



What about Him? ECT does not preclude or deny such a God. There is salvation for all who would take it. God does love the World. But His love is bounded by His moral uprightness, His perfect purity, which is why we need salvation in the first place!

Romans 2:4-10
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

God rewards the righteous and punishes the wicked. Love that turns a blind eye to sin, that lets the wicked off scot-free, that neglects to judge and punish evil, is not really love.

Selah.

amen, well said

 

[rjs330]

I am still waiting for the verse that says eternal life is given to the lost. Where does it say--everyone gets eternal life, the only thing that is different is the environment?

Yes that's what Jesus said. However he separated it. Eternal life is given to the beleiver. Eternal punishment given to the unbeliever.

Both are eternal, one is life the other is punishment. Eternal life then does not mean living eternally as in simply an existance. It is a reference to the type of existence you are living. Just the few statements given to us in scripture show the glorious life we will be,living. The statements on eternal punishment could not be considered living a life. Living a torturous existence but not life.

 

[Der Alte]

"For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality."
Yes---we are mortal, and Jesus gives immortality to the saved. This is to the saved not to the lost.
Np--that has been discussed several times--0where is the verse that says eternal life is given to the lost---I posted all those verses that says eternal life is for the saved.
1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
We have eternal life in us as a gift from God which will be given us at the resurrection, those who are alive at that time will be changed in a twinkling of an eye.
Mt 25:46 ...........
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Yes, eternal life---to the saved----everlasting punishment--gone over that to--only until the earth is made new. The heavens and the earth are remade and there is no more pain or suffering after that.
2 Thess 1:9 .........
"these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord
Yes---destroyed forever!
Mt 25:41............
"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
Gone over---Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning---
Jude 13 ..........
"for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever"
Yes---nothingness for the lost---zero--zip, zilch--eternal nothingness, eternal death, eternal nonlife---noever anything that says eternal life is given to the lost.

Not necessarily. In addition to Luke 16:19-31, in Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול]] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. ​

 

[Der Alte]

Please do not use bold type and say people are "wrong" and use words like "fallacy." It makes it appear like you are yelling and or that you are angry (Whether that is your emotional state during writing or not). Also, lets stick with Scripture please, too.
In any event, may God's love shine upon you.
...

You are mistaken! I did not bold anything in the post you quoted. This is bold. The rest is normal text. I use a slightly larger font so I can see it better. To say something that was posted is a lexical or logical fallacy is not a personal attack.

 

[mmksparbud]

1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
The saved have eternal life abiding in him, we will be resurrected to eternal life. The lost do not and will not have eternal life.

 

[razzelflabben]

1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
The saved have eternal life abiding in him, we will be resurrected to eternal life. The lost do not and will not have eternal life.

you have repeatedly been told that and then we further added and showed in scripture what you fail to address, that the non believer has eternal torment not eternal life. Seriously, it isn't that hard to follow the conversation whether you agree or not it's rude and inflammatory to pretend that you aren't following something so simple as the difference between eternal life/in Gods presence and eternal death/torment/separation from God

 

[Major1]

My testimony is written in my profile for public display. And as far as your judgment concerning how much bible study I've done???? Let me just say that your discernment hasn't impressed me so far anyway. But you're still the new guy here.


That sounds like you're half way there then. Since I have both 'a belief' as well as 'understanding' to go along with my belief.

Assurance is often confused with arrogance, but I do feel smarter for a number of truths that I believe God has led me to in my life. But especially so concerning the carnal minded doctrines once held dear because of fear, ignorance...or sometimes both. But most of all is this one where God's pregame plan was so dumb He ends up losing, to the devil he created in His omniscience, almost all those whom He loves and whom Jesus died for. A loss, from the tenor of your ECT posts, which really doesn't bother you as much as your FSU loss last week.

Depends upon your translation, and even then we're not sure. Since Jesus never spoke Latin or Greek, and there are no original authographs. A fate which leaves us most dependent upon those who authored the hundreds of NT translations that exist out there.


This verse is a good example of that transnational tweaking, which leads the indoctrinated. Since the Greek word ODUNAO in this verse (and next) is only in the NT 4 times, why don't we let scripture reveal how it's used in its two other contexts.

Luke 2:48 And, having seen him, they were amazed, and his mother said unto him, 'Child, why didst thou thus to us? lo, thy father and I, sorrowing/ODUNAO, were seeking thee.'

Gee, here's Joseph and Mary TORMENTED as they were seeking Jesus. Sounds like the testimony of a lot of brethren I've known over the decades. Only real difference is, they were the ones lost and the shepherd Jesus just hadn't found them yet. What was that definition of sin again???? My shepherd is going to win, and not fall short in the gospel plan of the ages.

Acts 20:38 sorrowing/ODUNAO most of all for the word that he had said - that they are about no more to see his face; and they were accompanying him to the ship.

And here it is for the last time. Used to describe the TORMENTED disciples who weren't going to see Paul again. Sounds like the FLAME you want to eternally ascribe to most of the human creation isn't quite as hot as you and the ECT crowd imagine....Thank God.

My dear brother in Christ. Please allow me to say to you that you being unimpressed by me means absolutely nothing to me whatsoever. I do not do this to impress anyone. I do it to get out the Word of God which is contained in The Bible.

If you do not like what I post, no problem with me as your problem is not with me but with the Word of God itself.

I have been at this a long time, granted not here on this site but nonetheless, a very long time. I have conversed with many people who think as you do. It is always the same. Twisting and manipulating words so that they will fit your theology.

The truth is simply that nothing I say is going to affect you. Now you will probably become irritated at what I post but then again that is exactly what the Holy Spirit does when men are faced with the truth of God's Word.

Now as for my "terror" at eternal torments compared to FSU's loss. My friend, I have NO terror at all concerning the eternal torments coming to the lost. I am not going to be involved in anyway with them. I will be either Raptured or resurrected to heaven to be with the Lord Jesus. All judgment is given to the Son not to me.

My loss was that my nephew, age 42 had a blood clot while watching that game and died leaving 2 children and a wife behind. He was a graduate of FSU as was his wife and it is a real tragedy fro my family.

 

[Major1]

Finnally!! You get it!! It is eternal life and eternal death----life, death. Great!

But YOU still do not get it my friend.

Biblically speaking, eternal life means life eternally in heaven with God.

Eternal death means living eternally in the Lake of Fire with Satan.

Matthew 25:46........
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".

In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation.

 

[mmksparbud]

you have repeatedly been told that and then we further added and showed in scripture what you fail to address, that the non believer has eternal torment not eternal life. Seriously, it isn't that hard to follow the conversation whether you agree or not it's rude and inflammatory to pretend that you aren't following something so simple as the difference between eternal life/in Gods presence and eternal death/torment/separation from God

You can not have eternal conscious torment unless you are alive----You hjave never provi deda verser thst says desth is sepeion from God. That is made up thology.

you have repeatedly been told that and then we further added and showed in scripture what you fail to address, that the non believer has eternal torment not eternal life. Seriously, it isn't that hard to follow the conversation whether you agree or not it's rude and inflammatory to pretend that you aren't following something so simple as the difference between eternal life/in Gods presence and eternal death/torment/separation from God

You have yet to provide a verse that states death is separation from God. Death is death---not life. What is so hard to understand about that? When we die the breath, soul, goes back to God. When resurrected, He gives it back. At the 2nd death it goes back to Him, permanently.

 

[mmksparbud]

I am having a lot of computer problems----I've cleaned it about 5 times and time threats are found. It slows down, the spellcheck won't work, and at times freezes. Going to shut down. I thought the adds I was seeing was from the site but I think it is me.

 

[razzelflabben]

You can not have eternal conscious torment unless you are alive----You hjave never provi deda verser thst says desth is sepeion from God. That is made up thology.

??????? I think you need to retype this so I can understand what you want to say...if I figured out the code, We have looked multiple times at the scriptures that say talk about the second death...here are a few of the passages you have been presented....
Revelation 20:14
Revelation 21:8
Revelation 2:11
Revelation 20:6
Jude 1:12

as to the whole idea of separation from God...eternal life is eternity with God, therefore eternal death would be eternal separation from God, right? Do we need to show you more passages? Btw, thanks for responding to me, some here have found it okay to be rude and not even acknowledge I said anything, at least you aren't doing that even if you refuse to respond to what I have said.

You have yet to provide a verse that states death is separation from God. Death is death---not life. What is so hard to understand about that? When we die the breath, soul, goes back to God. When resurrected, He gives it back. At the 2nd death it goes back to Him, permanently.

see all the above passages and if you are willing to offer a rebuttal let me know we can build as scripture tells us to, precept by precept.

 

[Major1]

1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
The saved have eternal life abiding in him, we will be resurrected to eternal life. The lost do not and will not have eternal life.

It does not matter what you are shown in the Scriptures. You made your decision and that is that. Here it is one more time:

Revelation 20:14
"And the devil that deceived them was cast the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever".

 

[razzelflabben]

I am having a lot of computer problems----I've cleaned it about 5 times and time threats are found. It slows down, the spellcheck won't work, and at times freezes. Going to shut down. I thought the adds I was seeing was from the site but I think it is me.

been there done that, as the joke about computers goes, "have you tried turning it off and on again?"

Seriously though, hope it isn't too big a problem.

 

[Major1]

I am having a lot of computer problems----I've cleaned it about 5 times and time threats are found. It slows down, the spellcheck won't work, and at times freezes. Going to shut down. I thought the adds I was seeing was from the site but I think it is me.

I am having the same problem. I have had a problem even signing on to this site but not others?????

Any advice?

 

[Major1]

You can not have eternal conscious torment unless you are alive----You hjave never provi deda verser thst says desth is sepeion from God. That is made up thology.



You have yet to provide a verse that states death is separation from God. Death is death---not life. What is so hard to understand about that? When we die the breath, soul, goes back to God. When resurrected, He gives it back. At the 2nd death it goes back to Him, permanently.

Isaiah 59:1-2 ..........
"Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 ...................
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might".

Matthew 25:41 ............
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. "

Matthew 25:46 .............
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Is this enough or do you need so more? May I say once again to you that this is NOT about any Bible verses being presented to you . That has been done over and over. It is about you being unable to accept those Scriptures being presented as the truth of God's Word and then you placing your opinions above those Scriptures.

I am not trying to be mean spirited to you but that seems to me to be the conflict here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are mistaken! I did not bold anything in the post you quoted. This is bold. The rest is normal text. I use a slightly larger font so I can see it better. To say something that was posted is a lexical or logical fallacy is not a personal attack.

I never said anything about how you were making a personal attack against me. I was merely saying you sounded angry in your post (Whether that was true or not - I do not know). But would you not agree that people respond better to the carrot instead of the stick? Meaning, it doesn't hurt to throw in some loving words towards your oponents every now and then. Also, people do not like hearing the word "wrong." It is not a diplomatic word. Yes, in some cases the use of this word is necesary (to show someone the error of their sin or if they are ignoring of morality in their beliefs in some way), but it should not be used as a means of normal discourse (Especially with an exclamation point following it).

As for the bolded text: how can you read other people's posts that are smaller?
Anyways, if you are new (or unskilled) with computers and you need help in adjusting the text on your computer, I can help with that if you just PM me about it.

In any event, may God bless you.
And may His goodness be upon you.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am having a lot of computer problems----I've cleaned it about 5 times and time threats are found. It slows down, the spellcheck won't work, and at times freezes. Going to shut down. I thought the adds I was seeing was from the site but I think it is me.

My tablet was a little sluggish at times. But I click out of the problem by hitting the "More Options" Button within the thread. If you are using a regular computer: Sometimes clearing the cookies on your PC helps, (and using a different browser). The best way of course is to first detox your computer by clearing out all the files and then putting back all the programs again. Then use one of those security websites that re-route everything thru them (whereby they block all the bad stuff for you). But that costs time and money of course. This is why I prefer Mac computers or devices instead of PC's. Less hassle. You do not get the virus problems as much (even though their machines are super expensive).


....

 

[razzelflabben]

First, the majority of God's Word does not specifically say that the wicked will burn alive in flames for all time. Revelation 14:10-11 is the only passage that appears to say that at first glance (of which I explain below). Inferences or assumptions are made based on the words used (without looking how those words are used elswhere in Scripture).

Second, the fire is "everlasting" and or "unquenchable" for the amount of time that the Lake of Fire exists. But the Lake of Fire will not exist for all eternity. How so? Well, in the future, "...God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4). "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;.." (Revelation 21:1). The Lake of Fire is a part of the old heavens and old Earth and not the New Heavens and New Earth.

But how can the words like "forever" and "everlasting" be used in a temporal sense?

Well, in the Bible, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.
For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;"
(Philemon 1:15 KJV).​

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).​

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means.

But what about words like "for ever and ever"? Surely this must be talking about an endless eternity, right? Again, this would not be true according to the Bible. For Jeremiah 7 says,

"Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever." (Jeremiah 7:7).​

Are we to assume that certain faithful Old Testament saints will dwell in the land here upon this Earth forever and ever while the rest of the saints dwell upon the New Earth? Surely not. "For ever and ever" is used in context to how long that promise will be fulfilled and will last (i.e. which would be with the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ).

Are you still not convinced?

There are other examples where the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.

It tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 (as mentioned above) where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

Side Note:

But what about those who worship the beast as not having rest day and night in Revelation 14:11? Well, this is saying that those who worship the beast will have no rest day and night WHILE or DURING the TIME they worship the beast. For Revelation 16:2 says they had painful boils.


...

I'm assuming that since you refuse to address any of the points made in rebuttal of your position and just insist on repeating your opinions as if they hold weight when myself and others have challenged them and you refuse to even acknowledge that it was addressed that that really means you don't have a response because what we speak is truth and you are too prideful to confess it...I mean that would be the logical conclusion and you are all about logic, right? Even if it is flawed logic?