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Featured The date of great tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by shilohsfoal, Mar 22, 2019.

  1. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    So your saying out of everything Jesus said in Mathew 24,that is all they saw?
    Did they not see everything he said this generation would see?

    Sometimes it makes me wonder if the western wall will be torn apart someday.Its been there one stone upon another seems like forever.
    Maybe the ten nations will destroy it just for spite.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    But it is!
    YES ! They most certainly did!

    Matt 24:1-3 -- Christ announces that the second Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind, would soon be destroyed and earthly Jerusalem made desolate. The Jewish followers of Christ, as citizens of the Old Covenant dispensation, inquire as to the future of their nation, having been informed that the end of that age would be accompanied by the annihilation of the entire Mosaic Temple system and state. These disasters came to pass in accordance with the prophecies of Christ: The Jews launched the Great Revolt in AD 66 under messianic king Menahem (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 2:17) and set fire to the Holy Temple at the desolation of Jerusalem at AD 70 (Josephus, Wars, 6:2:9; 6:3:5; 6:4:5; 6:6:2). At the end of this tribulation, Roman armies took apart the Jerusalem Temple stone-by-stone to get the gold that had melted down between the cracks (during the fires) and to remove the headquarters of the Jewish revolt. The Temple vessels and utensils were then plundered and taken to Rome by General Titus (Josephus, Wars, 7:5:5-7).

    Matt 24:4 -- Shaken by the prospect of the destruction of their glorious Temple, and knowing from the destruction of Solomon's Temple 600 years prior that such calamities mark God's visitation to them (Jer 7:1-20,29-34), the apostles ask, "When will these things be?" and "What sign signifies thy coming at end of the age?" The questioning highlights the fact that the Judgement coming of Christ and the end of the Old Testamental age would be discerned and comprehended in the passing of calamitous signs.

    Matt 24:4-5 -- Christ predicts the intensification of false messianic movements within Israel and around the empire. First-century examples: Dositheus the Samaritan (Origen: Contra Celsum, VI, ii; Hom. xxv in Lucam; Contra Celsum, I, lvii), Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24) who was deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Herod Agrippa (Acts 12:20-23), Menahem (Josephus: War of the Jews; 2.433-450). Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the Almighty. (Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death.) During this period (52-58 AD) arose a celebrated Egyptian deceiver (Acts 21:38), who collected thirty-thousand followers and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling them that from there they would see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison and their obtaining the sovereignty of the city (Josephus: War of the Jews, 2.259-263; Antiquities of the Jews 20.169-171). Such messiahs and magicians were often as powerful in the display of miracles as were the apostles (see: Simon of Samaria in Acts 8:9-11; Apollonius of Tyana). Partial list of first-century false messiahs: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BC); Simon of Peraea (4 BC); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BC); Judas, the Galilean (6 AD); the Samaritan prophet (36 AD); King Herod Agrippa (44 AD); Theudas (? AD); the Egyptian prophet (52-58 AD); anonymous prophet (59 AD); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 AD); John of Gischala (67-70 AD); Vespasian (67 AD); Simon bar Giora (69-70 AD). Related link: Livius.org - Messiah Overview.

    Matt 24:6-8 -- Jesus promises His apostles that they will have famines, wars and rumors concerning wars. This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." For more on wars of this time and false prophets, see: Josephus: Antiquities, 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars, 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2. As for famines, Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).

    Matt 24:9-10 -- Jesus foretells the persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero, who falsely blamed the Christian sect for burning up to half of Rome. This persecution went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was precisely 3.5 years, from 64-68AD. It is essential to note that Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23, a passage which all scholars assign to a first-century fulfillment. Jesus predicts the civil wars of the Jews (Matt 24:10; 10:21), and the great Jewish civil war occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1).

    Matt 24:11-13 -- Jesus teaches more on false prophets, emphasizing their key role in the delusion of the nation, as per 2 Thess 2:7-11 (see also: Antiquities, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). Josephus says false prophets were related to the messianic movement of the seditious Zealots, who promised a redemption for the Jewish rebels at the Temple but were met with total destruction at the hand of the Romans. In Matthew 24:13 Jesus holds out hope for the believers who might endure to the end. (Verses 24:12-13 are parallel to Matthew 10:21-22.)

    Matt 24:14 -- A key sign of the end of the Jewish age was the gospel's rapid proclamation to the whole world (Greek: "oikoumene" = "inhabited earth;" "Roman Empire" -- Strong's # 3625). This sign was rapidly fulfilled in the apostles' generation, especially through Paul's ministry (Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47). The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire (compare the geographic boundaries of the "whole world" in Matt 24:14 with that of the same "whole world" in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The use of the Greek word "oikoumene" (Strong's #3625) in Matt 24:14 speaks of the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" ("oikoumene") of the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (see: Luke 2:1). Early Church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Eusebius, and Chrysostom said Matthew 24:14 as fulfilled in the apostles' generation. The immediate and rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire Empire signified a covenantal shift to a new dispensation wherein all nations participate equally in the blessing of Abraham through faith (Gen 12:1-3; Gal 3:6-9,14,29).

    Matt 24:15-20 -- Christ tells of His nation's Great Tribulation (cf. Luke 21:20-23). The famous historic account of the exodus of the Jerusalem Church in AD 66-67 is recorded by Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History, iii.v.). The Judean remnant saw the armies of Cestius Gallus in 66AD surrounding Jerusalem (and Vespasian's shortly thereafter; compare to the parallel account in Luke 21:20-24). At the same time, The Temple was captured by the Jewish Zealots as Paul had foretold (2 Thess 2:4-7). Messiah-King Menahem and the Zealots turned the temple into a military outpost, defiled it with murderous blood, and made evil of their own high priest while launching the Great Revolt. During this time, the daily sacrifices offered to Rome were ended, which was a declaration of war against the Roman Empire. These events signaled the faithful Jewish remnant to flee according to our Lord's commands to them in Matthew 24:16-20 and Luke 21:20:23. Just after they escaped the city, the Zealots seized the city, guarded the gates, and prevented all escape. Eusebius writes, "But the members of the Church in Jerusalem, having been commanded before the war in accordance with a certain oracle given by revelation to the men of repute there to depart from Jerusalem and to inhabit a certain city of Peraea called Pella, all the believers in Christ in Jerusalem went thither; and when now the saints had abandoned both the royal metropolis itself and the whole land of Judaea, the vengeance of God finally overtook the lawless persecutors of Christ and His apostles." At the end of the great tribulation the Romans made sacrifices to their standards at the Temple (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).
    Continued....
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Continuing.....

    Matt 24:21-24 -- Jesus tells more about Israel's Great Tribulation (also: Luke 21:20-24; Josephus, Wars of the Jews, entire). The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (see: Matthew 24:21). Josephus writes, "the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" (Wars of the Jews, preface, section 1; Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2/Jer 46:10; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress upon this people" (Luke 21:23; see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22:1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; 6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19; see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24; see also Josephus, Wars, preface, section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44; see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

    Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation). By comparing Matt 24:25 with similar statements in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4, we see that they all signal events in the apostles' near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it could be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

    Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Roman eagle ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and the verses following. All this came to pass in 66-70AD (see also: Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

    Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf. Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11). All torah-observing, Messiah-rejecting Jews were gathered into Jerusalem from all over the world at Passover Feast in 67AD and were shut in by the Zealot and Roman armies. Now, locked in the giant furnace of the city, millions were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:40-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31; Matt 21:40-45). It is no surprise that rabbis today call 70AD the "end of biblical Judaism." Indeed, the faithful and newly consummated Church-bride was gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church-nation of Christ, thus fully built and established, is never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true Faith of the Living God and the Holy Nation. Christ's followers were destined to occupy all nations to gather the elect from all peoples into Abraham's blessing (Gal 3:7-9.14,16,26-29; Gen 12:1-3). The teachings and prophecies of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated by this historic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 66-70.

    Matt 24:32-33 -- Jesus gives a parable about trees and their seasons (Luke 21:29-31). The shooting forth of leaves signals that summer is now near at hand. Jesus applies this natural phenomenon to his apostles and the season of the end of the age: "So likewise you too [the apostles], when you shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door" (cf. James 5:8-9; Rev 3:20). In Luke's account, Christ's promise to the apostles is as follows: "So also you, when you see these things come to pass know that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk 21:31).

    Matt 24:33-34 -- In this passage, the climax of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus promises his apostles that they will see all these signs come to pass in their generation: "So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
     
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Jesus was ABSOLUTELY clear on when the disciples would know that His coming was "near and at the doors"

    33 So you also, when you see all these things, know it is near—at the doors!

    Not before they saw ALL THESE THINGS, but WHEN they saw all these things...

    James, well aware of Christ's words above, That Jesus' Coming would NOT BE NEAR UNTIL CERTAIN SIGNS HAD BEEN SEEN, in the 50's AD, is led infallibly by the Holy Spirit to declare His coming was indeed at that time "near and at the door, which again, is Something Jesus said COULD NOT BE TRUE UNLESS THE SIGNS HAD BEEN SEEN:
    James 5:8-9
    8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near
    9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!


    Now, either James knew the signs had been seen, or James was in error.
    Those are the honest bible expositors' only 2 options.


    Considering that the Western Wall is the foundation of the Roman Fort Antonia, and not of the Jewish Temple, it's destruction would be inconsequential biblically.
     
  5. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    Ive read that butim not convinced of it.Im not sure where it was but there are many jews who pray at the western wall everyday.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    And a bunch of Muslims spin around a giant cube in Mecca... Which gives them THE EXACT SAME ACCESS TO THE FATHER that The Jews get by sticking post-it notes into, and praying at, the remains of a Roman Wall.
     
  7. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    The temple was to be destroyed and no rock was to be left atop another... so why do we think that the Western wall is part of the old temple.

    The old temple is gone. The Western wall was built by the Romans.

    There are many really good documentaries on this fact now.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You are correct.



    Fort Antonia and the Jewish Temple:



    Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.



    Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
    Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
    Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
    Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.



    Mar 15:16 Then the soldiers led Him away into the hall called Praetorium, and they called together the whole garrison.



    Act_23:35 he said, "I will hear you when your accusers also have come." And he commanded him to be kept in Herod's Praetorium.



    The following comes from Wars of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book 5, Chapter 5, Section 8.


    8. Now as to the tower of Antonia, it was situated at the corner of two cloisters of the court of the temple; of that on the west, and that on the north; it was erected upon a rock of fifty cubits in height, and was on a great precipice; it was the work of king Herod, wherein he demonstrated his natural magnanimity. In the first place, the rock itself was covered over with smooth pieces of stone, from its foundation, both for ornament, and that any one who would either try to get up or to go down it might not be able to hold his feet upon it. Next to this, and before you come to the edifice of the tower itself, there was a wall three cubits high; but within that wall all the space of the tower of Antonia itself was built upon, to the height of forty cubits. The inward parts had the largeness and form of a palace, it being parted into all kinds of rooms and other conveniences, such as courts, and places for bathing, and broad spaces for camps; insomuch that, by having all conveniences that cities wanted, it might seem to be composed of several cities, but by its magnificence it seemed a palace. And as the entire structure resembled that of a tower, it contained also four other distinct towers at its four corners; whereof the others were but fifty cubits high; whereas that which lay upon the southeast corner was seventy cubits high, that from thence the whole temple might be viewed; but on the corner where it joined to the two cloisters of the temple, it had passages down to them both, through which the guard (for there always lay in this tower a Roman legion) went several ways among the cloisters, with their arms, on the Jewish festivals, in order to watch the people, that they might not there attempt to make any innovations; for the temple was a fortress that guarded the city, as was the tower of Antonia a guard to the temple; and in that tower were the guards of those three (14). There was also a peculiar fortress belonging to the upper city, which was Herod’s palace; but for the hill Bezetha, it was divided from the tower Antonia, as we have already told you; and as that hill on which the tower of Antonia stood was the highest of these three, so did it adjoin to the new city, and was the only place that hindered the sight of the temple on the north. And this shall suffice at present to have spoken about the city and the walls about it, because I have proposed to myself to make a more accurate description of it elsewhere.


    Josephus said Fort Antonia was built upon a gigantic rock.

    This provides tremendous evidence that the Dome of the Rock is the true location of Fort Antonia.


    During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left of Jerusalem was that “built by the Romans”. The Romans did not destroy Fort Antonia, because it belonged to them.


    The area now known as “The Temple Mount” is about the same size and shape as other Roman forts built during the time of Christ.


    .
     
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  9. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    No, what I'm saying and have been saying is that Jesus stated things that must happen before His return and one of those things was the destruction of the temple and it happened just like He said it would. And the destruction of the temple happened before the passing of the generation of that time.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Yet Jesus said the passing of ALL THESE THINGS would happen before the passing of the generation of that time, not just the Temple falling.

    So, as I have been saying, you have to change the verse to make your "some of these things" view work.

    I believe changing your view to fit the verse is the more excellent way.
     
  11. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

    See what things come to pass? All of the following for one, obviously.

    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


    Where once those things have come to pass, it then leads to the following.

    Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    It's not required that verses 20-26 all have to occur during the same era of time though. Even if verse 20 has to do with events in the first century, that doesn't mean all of verse 24 is only applicable to the first century as well, nor does it mean verses 25-26 are even applicable to the first century at all.

    Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

    Till what all be fulfilled? Verses 20-26 for one, obviously. In verse 24 the following has not been fulfilled yet though---until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. In verse 25 and 26, nothing in those verses have been fulfilled. And for certain nothing in verse 27 has been fulfilled yet. Obviously then, except to maybe preterists, the context of verse 32 spans at least 2000 years, thus couldn't possibly be meaning in the first century, in regards to---This generation shall not pass away, till.
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Likewise ye, when ye see...
    Who's the ye?
    His Disciples. (Lk 20:45)

    And notice Jesus does not say "if ye see"... he says "WHEN ye see"

    ANY interpretation that REMOVES the disciples from direct application must be rejected by the honest Bible expositor.

    Rather it is absolutely required.
    Again, ANY interpretation that REMOVES the disciples from direct application must be rejected by the honest Bible expositor.

    See Revelation 11:2 for the EXACT ordained duration of Gentile Trampling of the city and sanctuary.
    And guess what? It isn't 2000 years...

    Actually, those verses contain very common, oft used language the prophets employed to describe any number of Judgment visitations of God throughout History. Only folks unfamiliar with the previous use of this language would come to the conclusion you have about it.

    I recommend a good Bible search engine and look those terms up.

    God OFTEN is depicted "coming on the clouds with glory, seen by every eye", throughout the OT for Judgment against individual nations and Kings... and is depicted as destroying the heavens and earth each time....You need to show where the Bible teaches you to apply a polar opposite interpretation to this language when you find it in the NT than you do when you find it in the OT.

    Can you?

    I don't find arguments about what scripture teaches that begin with "Obviously" very convincing.

    Atheists will say "Obviously Jesus was a mythical character and not a real Human being" - do you find their "obviously" argument convincing?

    I don't.

    Do you have any extra Biblical, Historical proof that they are wrong to make such a claim?

    I don't.

    Show your work... show how you arrived at what you consider obvious.

    As I have said time and again, any interpretation like yours that REMOVES the disciples, to whom Jesus was Directly addressing, from Direct application of the discourse in their day, MUST be rejected if we are to believe scripture.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  13. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    There are millions of Israelis who believe the wrstern wall was not built by Romans.You would have to ask them why they believe.

    I would say its all speculation.
     
  14. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    There are millions, if not billions of people that believe that the western wall is part of the temple........and the Dome on the Rock is on the temple mount..

    Why do you think that they built it there?

    Why do you think that there is a grave yard at the east gate? All this is to trip up the prophesies of Christ's return.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Jesus wasn't concerned about the 3 walls around the Temple, but rather the buildings in the Temple, and more importantly, the Sanctuary.
    The Romans had to tear down the walls to get to the City [no smart bombs in those days].


    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:1-2 Temple, buildings, stones

    Matthew 24:

    1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
    And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
    2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
    Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”

    Mark 13:
    1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings
    2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
    Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>

    Luke 21:
    5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly<2570> stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
    6 “These which ye are beholding.
    Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>

    Luke 19:
    41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
    42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee,
    now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
    and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
    and shall be encompassing Thee,
    and pressing Thee from-every-side.
    44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
    and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
    stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely leveled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground.

    Thus awfully complete an ever, beyond example, were the calamities which befel the Jewish nation, and especially the city of Jerusalem. With what truth, then, did our LORD declare, that there should "be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be !" (Matt. xxiv. 21.) Such was the prediction : the language in which Josephus declares its fulfillment is an exact counterpart to it : "If the misfortunes," says he, " of all nations, from the beginning of the world, were compared with those which befel the Jews, they would appear far less in comparison ;" and again, "No other city ever suffered such thing's, as no other generation , from the beginning of the world, was ever more fruitful in wickedness." These were, indeed, "the days of vengeance," that all things which are written (especially by Moses, Joel, and Daniel,) might be fulfilled." Luke xxi. 22.
    =================================================
    This 70ad siege video shows the walls in relation to the Temple that the Romans had to break through [Can't wait for the 4th one!] The eastern side of the Temple was near a high ravine]
    [best viewed full screen]
    .......................................



    walls ofjerusalem.jpg
     
  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't know if they did or not but that wasn't part of the OD and this isn't part of what one generation would see. He said the temple and building would eventually be destroyed, then an hour later on the mount of olives he gave a discourse regarding the events of the GT which ends with the second coming. He promised one generation would see all the things he spoke of while on the mount. We can't add in things said before the Olivet discourse, nor things said afterwards. The OD was a very specific conversation about a certain period of 42 months and what happens when those months are completed.
     
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They didn't build the wall, it goes back to Herod and it was an original wall of the temple complex. The Roman's merely added to it etc but the majority of it (the largest stone work in the middle and downward and even under ground) was Jewish construction.

    http://www.gosleepgo.com/node/183


    http://www.ctsp.co.il/LBS pages/LBS_western_wall.htm

    http://home.houston.rr.com/mypilgrimage/wall.html

    http://www.frommers.com/destinations/print-narrative.cfm?destID=88&catID=0088030406

     
  18. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    Have you read how the king of the norths military ,which occupies Jerusalem for 42 months is described in revelation?
    And the things they do during that occupation?
     
  19. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Yeah well obviously you believe something different. Again, the temple was destroyed (a thing that would happen, it did) However, all these things, include all the things that were happening then and will continue to happen until the end of time (when the Lord returns) .... wars and rumors of wars etc. all these "things" will continue until the Lord returns.

    "So, as I have been saying, you have to change the verse to make your "some of these things" view work." Yes, this is what You have been saying .... not me, I'm not changing the verses at all ...

    Matthew 24

    4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. (All these things)
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Yes you are, demonstrably so... at the very least you need to change "this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" to mean something completely different than what it literally means.
     
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