The Colorado Springs Quandary

[rambot]

You don't see anything.

Oh. Ok.

I guess I don't see anything.

 

[rjs330]

Do you not understand that experiments show that certain conditions trigger subconscious reactions? Most of what we do is below the level at which we are conscious of making decisions. You react subconciously to any number of influences just as we all do. And you think you are unique?

It's quite a moment when we discover we're not. It's quite a moment when we realise that we are so similar. That we are governed by the same urges and biases as are other people. It's a certain liberation to come to terms with that. Because it means that if you understand what makes you tick, you have an opportunity to change the path that your subconscious chooses.

And I'm not going to be able to persuade you of this, but if you are the least racist person that you know, it doesn't mean that you have no racist tendencies.

I have read all about the experiments and I have also read how flawed they are to the point they are useless. So no, I dont believe that everyone is racist to some extent or another. Racism is tossed around far too easily and saying everyone is racist to some extent even if it's subconscious is patently ridiculous. It's a far too convenient for the left because then they can use it for all kinds of nefarious policies they want to institute.

If you want to claim you are racist in some fashion be my guest. I patently deny that I am. And I just a sneaking suspicion you aren't either. You've just bought the poison they are selling.

 

[rjs330]

I'm finding this astonishingly difficult to get across. You seem to know nothing about the case. Please listen up...

The scum is charged with murder. He might also, in addition, be charged with a hate crime. They are two separate fellonies. His lawyer has put forward the suggestion that this piece of dirt is himself gay proposing thereby that it wasn't therefore a hate crime. Implying that he couldn't hate gays because he was gay himself. Go figure that proposal yourself, but it it's proposed for that reason.

It might be true. It might not. But the motive for bringing it up should now be crystal clear.

Oh good grief, what is he going to accomplish by this? He killed a bunch of people. So what's his motive for claiming he's LGBTQ? What's it really going to do for him? He's going to get 300 years in prison instead of 500 years? He's going to prison for the rest of his life. So what's the point of making this claim. He's not going to benefit from it. I can see doing it if you are trying to avoid extra penalties for assault or maybe something else. But this? It's not going to make any difference. He will rot in jail regardless of a hate crime or not.

So no I don't see his motive here.

 

[rjs330]

Once you admit it's possibility....you've gone against the entire movement.

There's no way to prove or disprove any of this stuff. What possible justification exists for putting a kid on hormones and puberty blockers if he might be motivated by something other than gender dysphoria? How would a kid know if they were simply doing it out of peer or parent pressure as opposed to genuine internal conflict?

Why would we ever allow biological men to compete with women? Why would we ever house male inmates with female ones?

The whole affirmative care model looks like a horrible money making scheme damaging innumerable people.

You can't entertain the possibility these claims are fake and then advocate for them as if they're all true.

I agree, and to support this argument one of the hospitals I can't remember which, but I could find it if necessary, were having discussion on transgender surgeries and one of the main reasons why it would be good was because it's such a money maker. They talked about how much money they could make in doing the surgeries and how money would be coming in due to the incredible out of follow up care that would be needed because of those surgeries.

Yes, the trans supporters have painted themselves into a corner here by admitting there may be other motives for claiming one is trans. We have been saying this for some time now and have always been shut down by the "how dare you question" crowd. Apparently they are changing their minds. They won't see it that way and as soon as this case is over they will return to the how dare you question model.

 

[rjs330]

Oh. Ok.

I guess I don't see anything.

I'm glad that settled. Welcome to the dark side.

 

[JosephZ]

So what's his motive for claiming he's LGBTQ? What's it really going to do for him?

So far only the attorneys have made this claim. Do you have any evidence the shooter has made the claim?

 

[HannahT]

Oh good grief, what is he going to accomplish by this? He killed a bunch of people. So what's his motive for claiming he's LGBTQ? What's it really going to do for him? He's going to get 300 years in prison instead of 500 years? He's going to prison for the rest of his life. So what's the point of making this claim. He's not going to benefit from it. I can see doing it if you are trying to avoid extra penalties for assault or maybe something else. But this? It's not going to make any difference. He will rot in jail regardless of a hate crime or not.

So no I don't see his motive here.

You have a point about him not ever getting out. The lawyer's claims - no matter if they are true or not - won't make a hill of beans difference. He will never be able to join society again.

The first post of this thread had to do with the media - many portions of it anyway - racing to apply motive and reasons for this awful and evil circumstance. In today's world its a race to get their news and opinions out before other outlets. Accuracy doesn't mean much at the beginning as it does later on when they act as if nothing was said at first. It should not have taken those outlets much longer to look into the killer before making their claims. It shows the media outlets were once again trying to fan the flames of hatred and not journalism. This is something that makes them money, but it is also a double edged sword for them. They can't complain about them not being trusted when they do things like this, and yet their companies have to find ways of making a profit I guess. Their journalism afterwards doesn't erase the fanning of the flames they did at the beginning while trying to fill air time.

In so many of these mass shootings I always look to mental health, because this person clearly had issues. Since we as a society tend to really rot at dealing with mental health? I mean hashtags, and 'speaking my truth' and yacking about personal experiences isn't truly dealing with it. I'm speaking about concrete help. Instead, we always have to lean towards party affiliation, left or right, gun control, etc. Its never demands things we should all agree upon like helping people like this shooter before they go to far in anyway possible. Mental health costs are unreachable for many in this extreme category (and others of course), and 3 days stays at a mental hospital to bring people down to earth before releasing them (as with many others) doesn't nothing but put a Band-Aid on something that needs major surgery.

 

[rjs330]

So far only the attorneys have made this claim. Do you have any evidence the shooter has made the claim.

Is your claim the attorneys are lying then?
Why would they make this claim? What's the motive?

 

[HannahT]

So far only the attorneys have made this claim. Do you have any evidence the shooter has made the claim.

Why is that so important? I don't care if the man was or wasn't. People that do these types of things are deeply disturbed, and normally you find their reasoning for doing so also deeply disturbing.

Media made claims about his reasoning when this happened, and they also had no evidence...sadly that happens more than it should.

It fans the flames of bickering about whether the man was or wasn't non-binary, etc. Bickering and whether it was one sides 'anti gay' language, etc. To me it shows people are more about fighting amongst themselves then finding true causes, and ways of improving things to help things get better.

 

[JosephZ]

Is your claim the attorneys are lying then?
Why would they make this claim? What's the motive?

You're the one that said the shooter claimed he was LBGTQ, I was just wondering where you got this information.

 

[Aldebaran]

First up, we're not talking about overt racism - 'I don't like the Chinese, Arabs are dirty' etc. Secondly, a subconscious tendency actually means one that's below the level at which you can consciously perceive it. But there are experiments and tests that show them. And more examples that you'll possibly have time to assimilate.

And thirdly, you might actually be the first person without any inherrent tendancies and certainly the first to consciously be aware of what your subconscious does.

Sounds like you're using the "You're guilty of racism simply because I say you are and there's no way to refute it" argument here.

 

[Aldebaran]

You're the one that said the shooter claimed he was LBGTQ, I was just wondering where you got this information.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3747726-alleged-club-q-shooter-is-nonbinary-defense-says/

 

[Bradskii]

If you want to claim you are racist in some fashion be my guest. I patently deny that I am. And I just a sneaking suspicion you aren't either. You've just bought the poison they are selling.

I've been around the block a few times. And been around a few blocks as well. I've been to many places where I've mixed with people that aren't like me. And I've caught myself on very many occasions thinking something that was an incorrect but automatic reaction. And I had to consciously correct myself. I had to reset as it were. To remind myself that these reactions are inbuilt. That they were there for a reason. That it's not my fault that I have them. I needn't feel guilty. It's only my fault if I act on them unthinkingly.

I don't know your upbringing. I don't know where you live. Maybe you haven't interacted with many different types of people. Maybe you don't read or watch tv or have any interactions with anyone that has a different culture or way of life or look, talk and act differently.

You certainly wont be the first person to deny that you don't have these evolutionary driven automatic responses. But you might, incredibly, be the first person ever not to have them.

 

[Bradskii]

Sounds like you're using the "You're guilty of racism simply because I say you are and there's no way to refute it" argument here.

Nowhere have I suggested that anyone is guilty in having these tendencies. In fact I have specifically said that you cannot be guilty for having them. But if you know that they will arise unbidden and you do nothing about them and accept them unthinkingly, then that is a different matter.

Not making any attempt to understand other people is a problem. Not making any attempt to understand yourself as well exacerbates that problem.

 

[JosephZ]

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3747726-alleged-club-q-shooter-is-nonbinary-defense-says/

I'm aware of the claims made by the shooter's attorneys in their court filings.

 

[rambot]

After rereading the OP again, I just don't think it makes any substantive case for the point y'all are arguing. For its case to be successful you have to suspend the reality of self loathing and acts of rebellion. You have to suspend the reality that not all people in a group affirm that group and support it.

ABSOLUTELY I have no problems saying this dude may be queer in some way. Having a dad like that and being queer? I honestly can't imagine the amount of self loathing the poor dude suffers from.

I mean, do you all HONESTLY believe there are no self hating gays in the world?
With all the talk about condemnation that is yelled at them?

Internalised Homophobia - Rainbow Project
Self-loathing among gay people is nothing new. We’re overwhelmed by it | Matthew Todd


It just continues to speak to the lack of awareness of the gay experience with people who spout the most vitriole and hate against them.

And some of you have the gall to say "It's because their gay" and not because of the feelings of worthlessness you CONSTANTLY tell them they should be feeling? Right leaning Christians constantly message to them they are sinful because of their identity and not their choice, that they are groomers who shouldn't be around kids, who should never speak to children about being gay. You kick those gay children out of your chriatian homes leaving them to fend for themselves on the street.

And y'all say there's something wrong with them because they commit suicide and have more instances of mental health and unhealthy coping strategies like alcoholism and drug dependence? Heavens, it's like the baker getting angry at the egg for not being in the recipe when he forgot to put it in.

 

[rjs330]

Sounds like you're using the "You're guilty of racism simply because I say you are and there's no way to refute it" argument here.

Yes now you get it! We are all racists to some degree or another. Even if you never do anything that's racist you still are one.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Yes now you get it! We are all racists to some degree or another. Even if you never do anything that's racist you still are one.

Is that really so drastically different from believing everyone’s a sinner?

 

[Bradskii]

Is that really so drastically different from believing everyone’s a sinner?

Quite right. If you actually accept that you have a tendency to sin and you can consciously avoid doing so, then you're better for it. It's one of the three Delphic maxims: Know thyself.

 

[rjs330]

Is that really so drastically different from believing everyone’s a sinner?

Yes of course it is. Everyone is not a thief or a child molester. Everyone is not a racist.

But everyone is a sinner.