The Colorado Springs Quandary

[GoldenBoy89]

Yes of course it is. Everyone is not a thief or a child molester. Everyone is not a racist.

But everyone is a sinner.

Right and all (unrepentant) sinners face the same ultimate fate, correct?

How does it even matter to be a child molester or thief if simply being born into this world is bad enough to have the same charge against you (sinner) and face the same fate?

You don’t have to answer those questions as I actually don’t want to get into that specific discussion and derail the thread but my point is that it isn’t too different, to me at least, for someone to believe that we all possess some racist tendencies to an extent or another, from the belief that we all sin to some degree or another. It’s really not that big of a stretch for either point. I don’t exactly believe in sin in the way you might but I wouldn’t say we humans are totally innocent in our actions. Sometimes we steal, sometimes we do things that are much worse. There’s degrees to it. Same with racism or prejudice or bigotry. Some of us make a joke at someone’s expense based on their race or culture and not even realize it was offensive. Others become Nazis. I wouldn’t put them in the same category together but there’s degrees of separation between their underlying beliefs and assumptions about others.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I think this shooting had more to do with the phenomenon of several lone males in their late teens to early 20s going on a shooting rampage, than anything else. Most if not all so far seem to have been seeking notoriety as their primary motivation.

 

[rambot]

I think this shooting had more to do with the phenomenon of several lone males in their late teens to early 20s going on a shooting rampage, than anything else. Most if not all so far seem to have been seeking notoriety as their primary motivation.

Of ALL the bars around, I wonder why he went into that one?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Of ALL the bars around, I wonder why he went into that one?

Why did James Holmes pick that theater? I'm not saying it was a completely random choice. But it seems to me the primary thing most of these mass shooters have in common is their age range. I just knew this guy was going to be somewhere between 18 and 22 when I started looking into the details. Maybe they should pass a law that says you have to be 25 years old to buy a gun.

 

[rambot]

Why did James Holmes pick that theater? I'm not saying it was a completely random choice. But it seems to me the primary thing most of these mass shooters have in common is their age range. I just knew this guy was going to be somewhere between 18 and 22 when I started looking into the details. Maybe they should pass a law that says you have to be 25 years old to buy a gun.

haha! I'll tell you. THE MOST common, and I mean, by fAAR the most common is that all these shooters are male.
Male. There is no moreconsistent data point on all mass killings than that particular demographic.

Like 100% of mass shooting events seems to be a male.


And yet the concept of toxic masculinity gets ridiculed and downplayed.

 

[rambot]

Just happenned upon this which is tangengially related:
America's gun epidemic is deadlier than ever, and there are vast disparities in who's dying | CNN

There are two key factors driving community gun violence, says Jonathan Jay, an assistant professor at Boston University School of Public Health: disadvantage at the neighborhood level and exposure to gun violence at the individual level.

The statistics are staggering and sad (young black men being 22x more likely to die from fire arm homocide, that's a messed up statistic).

 

[Ceallaigh]

haha! I'll tell you. THE MOST common, and I mean, by fAAR the most common is that all these shooters are male.
Male. There is no moreconsistent data point on all mass killings than that particular demographic.

Like 100% of mass shooting events seems to be a male.


And yet the concept of toxic masculinity gets ridiculed and downplayed.

I saw that article too. But gun users in any form have always been predominately male. But the same goes for fishing. And auto mechanics. And race car drivers. And electricians. And construction workers. And surgeons. And software developers. And engineers. And architects. And police officers. And firefighters. And EMTs. And etc. But lets eliminate gender by teaching kindergarteners to become gender neutral gender fluid whatever, and that will solve the shooter problem eh? Even though it's mostly only ever been a problem in the US.

 

[Aldebaran]

Nowhere have I suggested that anyone is guilty in having these tendencies. In fact I have specifically said that you cannot be guilty for having them. But if you know that they will arise unbidden and you do nothing about them and accept them unthinkingly, then that is a different matter.

Not making any attempt to understand other people is a problem. Not making any attempt to understand yourself as well exacerbates that problem.

The tendency is called a survival instinct. I'll bet the Asian women in those videos where a black guy smashes them in the face with his fist and walks away would give those women (if they survived) a tendency to be cautious of people who keep being recorded attacking people for no reason. Same goes for anyone who's gotten their leg nearly chewed off by a pit bull that was off its leash. Next time, they'll keep their distance from pit bulls because their survival instinct is shaped by what they know and have experienced.

 

[Bradskii]

The tendency is called a survival instinct. I'll bet the Asian women in those videos where a black guy smashes them in the face with his fist and walks away would give those women (if they survived) a tendency to be cautious of people who keep being recorded attacking people for no reason. Same goes for anyone who's gotten their leg nearly chewed off by a pit bull that was off its leash. Next time, they'll keep their distance from pit bulls because their survival instinct is shaped by what they know and have experienced.

That's learned behaviour. As opposed to instinctive behaviour - see below (and as opposed to cultural conditioning). It's not the same although it serves pretty much the same purpose. More study needed.

' "By nature, people are group-living animals -- a strategy that enhances individual survival and leads to what we might call a 'tribal psychology'," says Steven Neuberg, ASU professor of social psychology, who authored the study with doctoral student Catherine Cottrell. "It was adaptive for our ancestors to be attuned to those outside the group who posed threats such as to physical security, health or economic resources, and to respond to these different kinds of threats in ways tailored to have a good chance of reducing them."

Unfortunately, says Neuberg, because evolved psychological tendencies are imperfectly attuned to the existence of dangers, people may react negatively to groups and their members even when they actually pose no realistic threat.

"People sometimes assume that because we say prejudice has evolved roots we are saying that specific prejudices can't be changed. That's simply not the case," Neuberg says. "What we think and feel and how we behave is typically the result of complex interactions between biological tendencies and learning experiences. Evolution may have prepared our minds to be prejudiced, but our environment influences the specific targets of those prejudices and how we act on them." '

Prejudice Is Hard-wired Into The Human Brain, Says ASU Study

Contrary to what most people believe, the tendency to be prejudiced is a form of common sense, hard-wired into the human brain through evolution as an adaptive response to protect our prehistoric ancestors from danger.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Aldebaran]

That's learned behaviour. As opposed to instinctive behaviour - see below (and as opposed to cultural conditioning). It's not the same although it serves pretty much the same purpose. More study needed.

' "By nature, people are group-living animals -- a strategy that enhances individual survival and leads to what we might call a 'tribal psychology'," says Steven Neuberg, ASU professor of social psychology, who authored the study with doctoral student Catherine Cottrell. "It was adaptive for our ancestors to be attuned to those outside the group who posed threats such as to physical security, health or economic resources, and to respond to these different kinds of threats in ways tailored to have a good chance of reducing them."

Unfortunately, says Neuberg, because evolved psychological tendencies are imperfectly attuned to the existence of dangers, people may react negatively to groups and their members even when they actually pose no realistic threat.

"People sometimes assume that because we say prejudice has evolved roots we are saying that specific prejudices can't be changed. That's simply not the case," Neuberg says. "What we think and feel and how we behave is typically the result of complex interactions between biological tendencies and learning experiences. Evolution may have prepared our minds to be prejudiced, but our environment influences the specific targets of those prejudices and how we act on them." '

Prejudice Is Hard-wired Into The Human Brain, Says ASU Study

Contrary to what most people believe, the tendency to be prejudiced is a form of common sense, hard-wired into the human brain through evolution as an adaptive response to protect our prehistoric ancestors from danger.

www.sciencedaily.com

The article you posted makes it sound like it's not such a bad thing. If a person is hard-wired to see something as dangerous and to be avoided, such as a vicious animal, it makes sense to abide by that instinct. Some people overcome those instincts, and have been recorded climbing over zoo fences to socialize with a lion. Those watching the video then understand why we need to trust certain instincts when the result of not trusting them is seen.

 

[Bradskii]

The article you posted makes it sound like it's not such a bad thing. If a person is hard-wired to see something as dangerous and to be avoided, such as a vicious animal, it makes sense to abide by that instinct. Some people overcome those instincts, and have been recorded climbing over zoo fences to socialize with a lion. Those watching the video then understand why we need to trust certain instincts when the result of not trusting them is seen.

If you know something or someone is dangerous from the outset, then obviously you take precautions. But the article wasn't talking about what we know. It was talking about our reactions to someone from outside of what we consider to be 'our group'. Someone we don't know.

Back when these tendencies evolved, your social group was relatively small and, almost by definition, safe. Else you wouldn't be in that group in the first place. If someone obviously from outside your group appeared then he could be harmless or harmful. The best option is to treat him carefully, with a degree of suspicion, until he proves to be friendly. The cost of doing that is zero. The cost of not doing that could be very expensive indeed. Those that didn't think it necessary to take precautions were sometimes removed from the gene pool. Leaving those who thought it wise to do so.

Quick anecdote. A few years back my wife and I were camping with another couple. Late evening, getting dark, miles from anywhere, sitting around the camp fire. Then two young guys appeared, walking towards us a hundred metres away. No indication that they were any danger. But my mate and myself automatically looked around for a weapon. Piece of wood, the axe by the fire. We were automatically on high alert. We both had ancestors who thought it wise.

As it turned out, their car had broken down a couple of miles away and they didn't have phone coverage to call for help. We gave them a beer and a lift to to where they could get coverage.

If we'd been part of a larger group of say 4 wheel drive enthusiasts and were all wearing the same t shirts and these guys turned up, who we didn't know, wearing the same t shirts, then there wouldn't have been the same reaction. Hey, here's 2 guys 'from our group'.

Someone from outside your group appears, however your group is defined at the time, there's an inbuilt reaction. Less in some cases, more in others and it will vary individually. But it's always there.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Oh. Ok.

I guess I don't see anything.

It's an easy out...take it.

This thread was an afterthought on hearing the news. I considered that perhaps someone had an elaborate argument to deal with this...and instead I've only learned who has no idea what they've been arguing all along.

 

[Ana the Ist]

So far only the attorneys have made this claim. Do you have any evidence the shooter has made the claim?

I imagine his attorneys would be disbarred otherwise.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I've been around the block a few times. And been around a few blocks as well. I've been to many places where I've mixed with people that aren't like me. And I've caught myself on very many occasions thinking something that was an incorrect but automatic reaction. And I had to consciously correct myself. I had to reset as it were. To remind myself that these reactions are inbuilt. That they were there for a reason. That it's not my fault that I have them. I needn't feel guilty. It's only my fault if I act on them unthinkingly.

I don't know your upbringing. I don't know where you live. Maybe you haven't interacted with many different types of people. Maybe you don't read or watch tv or have any interactions with anyone that has a different culture or way of life or look, talk and act differently.

You certainly wont be the first person to deny that you don't have these evolutionary driven automatic responses. But you might, incredibly, be the first person ever not to have them.

Racism is a social construct....not an evolutionary one.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Nowhere have I suggested that anyone is guilty in having these tendencies. In fact I have specifically said that you cannot be guilty for having them. But if you know that they will arise unbidden and you do nothing about them and accept them unthinkingly, then that is a different matter.

If they're unconscious or subconscious you won't notice them.

You described conscious biases.

Not making any attempt to understand other people is a problem.

It can be.

Not making any attempt to understand yourself as well exacerbates that problem.

I know myself.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Is that really so drastically different from believing everyone’s a sinner?

I thought you were an atheist.

 

[Bradskii]

If they're unconscious or subconscious you won't notice them.

You described conscious biases.

They are unconscious tendencies (as explained). That can result in a conscious bias. And overt racism.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I thought you were an atheist.

I am. I’m assuming their beliefs for a moment to make a point that they aren’t too different from what (I think it was Bradskii?) was saying wrt racism being ingrained.

 

[Bradskii]

Racism is a social construct....

Good to know that you realise that it's a problem within society. And how many times have we heard something like the following: 'Racism is an awful scourge in society. But of course, I'm not racist. Haven't a racist bone in my body. In fact, some of my best friends...'

If only we could encourage some introspection.

not an evolutionary one.

The tendency towards it is evolutionary.

 

[rjs330]

Right and all (unrepentant) sinners face the same ultimate fate, correct?

How does it even matter to be a child molester or thief if simply being born into this world is bad enough to have the same charge against you (sinner) and face the same fate?

You don’t have to answer those questions as I actually don’t want to get into that specific discussion and derail the thread but my point is that it isn’t too different, to me at least, for someone to believe that we all possess some racist tendencies to an extent or another, from the belief that we all sin to some degree or another. It’s really not that big of a stretch for either point. I don’t exactly believe in sin in the way you might but I wouldn’t say we humans are totally innocent in our actions. Sometimes we steal, sometimes we do things that are much worse. There’s degrees to it. Same with racism or prejudice or bigotry. Some of us make a joke at someone’s expense based on their race or culture and not even realize it was offensive. Others become Nazis. I wouldn’t put them in the same category together but there’s degrees of separation between their underlying beliefs and assumptions about others.

Funny you dont want to get into it, but you brought it us and then went in to a long rant. Yeah, throw a bomb, but let's not talk about it. Why don't you just delete your post and then we can move on. Otherwise I am going to respond.