The Book of Revelation

[Handmaid for Jesus]

In the pre-trib rapturist Churches the word rapture have replaced the word Resurrection teached by the Bible ....

-The rapture -THE CAUGHT UP- to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air UNTO HIS COMING is only a secondary event ....The primary event being the Coming of Jesus in the Clouds and the resurrection of the dead believers at the sound of the TRUMP....then we who will still be alive and remain UNTO the COMING of Jesus will be caught up together with them to meet Jesus in the CLOUDS in the Air while Jesus will destroy the sinners assembled at Armageddon.

You can believe it this way if you want to. I will not argue with you about it. Peace!

 

[keras]

Happy to say you are wrong, not everyone with die - them who are alive, in Christ, at the time of the rapture with be changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

OPINIONS, opinions and more opinions.

The only prophecy you have to support the idea if being changed into immortality, 1 Corinthians 15:59-56, is plainly and irrefutably about what happens after the Great White Throne judgement. Thinking that this happens anytime before that event, is simply false teaching and contradicts much Bible teaching.

 

[Riberra]

Happy to say you are wrong, not everyone with die - them who are alive, in Christ, at the time of the rapture with be changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

This is about the believers who will still be Alive and REMAIN UNTO the Coming of Jesus.
This is talking about SURVIVOR BELIEVERS after the tribulation.

re·main/rəˈmān/
verb

continue to exist, especially after other similar or related people or things have ceased to exist.

 

[Riberra]

You can believe it this way if you want to. I will not argue with you about it. Peace!

If you think that believing very hard in the pre -trib rapture is what will save you ...

Jesus own words in
Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

You have probably never heard about that verse in the pre-trib rapturist Churches ...

Repentance + The Belief in Jesus will get you Saved from the Lake of Fire.

 

[Douggg]

OPINIONS, opinions and more opinions.

The only prophecy you have to support the idea if being changed into immortality, 1 Corinthians 15:59-56, is plainly and irrefutably about what happens after the Great White Throne judgement. Thinking that this happens anytime before that event, is simply false teaching and contradicts much Bible teaching.

When the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4 takes place, do you think them who are alive (Christians of course) at the time are going to be caught up in their existing bodies, whether they are 90 years old, 80 years old, 70 years old, 60 years old and on down the line - with all of the aliments and sicnknesses, and imperfections - to join with the resurrected saints in clouds to then meet Jesus in the air?

Not going to happen like that, keras.

 

[Douggg]

This is about the believers who will still be Alive and REMAIN UNTO the Coming of Jesus.
This is talking about SURVIVOR BELIEVERS after the tribulation.

re·main/rəˈmān/
verb

continue to exist, especially after other similar or related people or things have ceased to exist.

No can't be - unless you are going to have the resurrected saints hanging around in the clouds
until after the great tribulation is over.

The resurrected saints and the translated living join together in the clouds - indicating that it is almost a simultaneous event - and together meet Jesus in the air - on the other side of the clouds.

In Acts 1, some of the disciples saw Jesus ascend into a cloud which they could no longer see him. I appears to me that leaving from their sight Jesus traveled into another dimension of where heaven is and once there - again came to the throne on clouds of heaven, in Daniel 7:13-14 to receive his Kingdom.

What I am getting at is the air reference in 1Thessalonians4 is not for the most part our literal atmosphere, but the travel to another dimension.

 

[Riberra]

No can't be - unless you are going to have the resurrected saints hanging around in the clouds
until after the great tribulation is over.

The resurrected saints and the translated living join together in the clouds - indicating that it is almost a simultaneous event - and together meet Jesus in the air - on the other side of the clouds.

The resurrected saints and the translated living believers survivors join together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the AIR UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS for their protection while Jesus will kill the sinners [all those with the MARK]assembled at ARMAGEDDON along with the World armies.Revelation 16:14-16


You need to determine who are the SAINTS .
-The Saints are the OT Prophets,The OT Patriarchs,the Twelve Apostles and all the Christians who died martyrs [and those that will be beheaded during the 42 months reign of the Beast]for their testimony of Jesus and the Word of God.
Revelation 20:4-6
-the beievers still alive and remain unto the Coming of Jesus who have not received the mark nor worshiped the beast will be caught up and gathered with the resurrected SAINTS -at the same time- to meet Jesus in the AIR ...

 

[Douggg]

The resurrected saints and the translated living believers survivors join together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the AIR UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS for their protection while Jesus will kill the sinners [all those with the MARK]assembled at ARMAGEDDON along with the World armies.

Revelation 16:14-16

Yes, I understand that point, and it is reasonable rationale imo to put the rapture around that time, looking at that verse alone. The problem with it being at that time, it will be totally expected. Which is also reasonable rationale that it won't be then.

Another problem with putting the rapture then, is that the Jews in Jerusalem are not raptured although they will certainly be Christians at that time, welcoming Jesus saying blessed is he who come in the name of the Lord. Those Jews escape through a valley created when the Mt. of Olives split in Zechariah 14.

The verse is still there no matter what, and must be taken into consideration, if not the rapture at that time. Two possibilities that I can think of:

1. it is for the tribulation saints to stay righteous. That Jesus appearance in heaven, as the cosmos parts will be totally unexpected, as is Revelation 6... unexpected like a thief in the night. Not for a rapture, but his return to rescue the saints.

2. the verse has been inserted in that part of Revelation as a reminder that way to escape those things talked about starting in Revelation 6 and revealed to John is to watching and hopeful before any of those things take place. As spoken to the church at Philadelphia.

 

[Riberra]

Yes, I understand that point, and it is reasonable rationale imo to put the rapture around that time, looking at that verse alone. The problem with it being at that time, it will be totally expected. Which is also reasonable rationale that it won't be then.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:33 that when we shall see ALL THESE THINGS, KNOW THAT IT IS NEAR, EVEN AT THE DOOR....

Another problem with putting the rapture then, is that the Jews in Jerusalem are not raptured although they will certainly be Christians at that time, welcoming Jesus saying blessed is he who come in the name of the Lord. Those Jews escape through a valley created when the Mt. of Olives spit in Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14.
That is the proof verse that the Jews who will still be in Jerusalem will be saying -blessed is he who come in the name of the Lord- ONLY WHEN THEY WILL SEE JESUS COMING IN GLORY IN THE CLOUDS AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus said in Matthew 24:33 that when we shall see ALL THESE THINGS, KNOW THAT IT IS NEAR, EVEN AT THE DOOR....

He was referring to his Second Coming. Not his coming for the rapture - although, we can know from this being the fig tree generation - that the rapture is close as well.

That is the proof verse that the Jews who will still be in Jerusalem will be saying -blessed is he who come in the name of the Lord- ONLY WHEN THEY WILL SEE JESUS COMING IN GLORY IN THE CLOUDS AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

It is that they will say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord - from here on earth, not raptured, but escaping through the valley created when the mount of Olives splits.

The Jews will be Christians for the second half of the seventh week. Revelation 12:17 are the Jews in Jerusalem, who did not make it out in time when the aod will be setup. Those are the ones Jesus rescues in Zechariah 14. They have the testimony of Jesus.

 

[Riberra]

He was referring to his Second Coming. Not his coming for the rapture - although, we can know from this being the fig tree generation - that the rapture is close as well.

The caught up to meet Jesus in the Clouds is tied to JESUS Second COMING IN THE CLOUDS which will happen after the Tribulation Matthew 24:29-31

It is that they will say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord - from here on earth, not raptured, but escaping through the valley created when the mount of Olives splits.

There is no pre-tribulation rapture in God's agenda ....

The Jews will be Christians for the second half of the seventh week. Revelation 12:17 are the Jews in Jerusalem, who did not make it out in time when the aod will be setup. Those are the ones Jesus rescues in Zechariah 14. They have the testimony of Jesus.

There is actually a very small number of Jews who are Christians in Jerusalem [so it will be in the time we are talking about]...

The only mention of the non Christians Jews turning to God in Jerusalem during the Tribulation before the 42 months reign of the Beast is mentioned to happen when they will see the TWO WITNESSES BEING RESURRECTED AND ASCENDING TO HEAVEN ..mentioned in
Revelation 11:12-13
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

So that will be that group along with the few Jews who are already Christians in Jerusalem who will be the Woman protected and nourished by God in a place prepared for them ,during the 42 months reign of the Beast.

 

[Douggg]

The caught up to meet Jesus in the Clouds is tied to JESUS Second COMING IN THE CLOUDS which will happen after the Tribulation Matthew 24:29-31

There is no pre-tribulation rapture in God's agenda ....

No, the Christian Jews in Jerusalem not being raptured shows that the post trib view is wrong. The rapture may be pre-trib or it may not be pre-trib, but it is not post trib.

There is actually a very small number of Jews who are Christians in Jerusalem [so it will be in the time we are talking about]...

I am not sure of what you are saying, but when the rapture takes place - the Jews in Jerusalem will not be believers in Jesus. Which the Jews up until the time the person betrays them, and claims to be God - will think the Antichrist is their messiah.

So therefore, that places the rapture sometime between now and the revealing of the man of sin act in 2thessalonians2:4.

The only mention of the non Christians Jews turning to God in Jerusalem during the Tribulation before the 42 months reign of the Beast is mentioned to happen when they will see the TWO WITNESSES BEING RESURRECTED AND ASCENDING TO HEAVEN ..mentioned in
Revelation 11:12-13
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

So that will be that group along with the few Jews who are already Christians in Jerusalem who will be the Woman protected and nourished by God in a place prepared for them ,during the 42 months reign of the Beast.

No, there are at least 144,000 sealed at the beginning to the second half of the 70th week in Revelation 7 before any of the judgments begin on the beast kingdom. From the 144,000, the rest of Israel will become Christians... because all Israel shall be saved.

 

[keras]

When the resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4 takes place, do you think them who are alive (Christians of course) at the time are going to be caught up in their existing bodies, whether they are 90 years old, 80 years old, 70 years old, 60 years old and on down the line - with all of the aliments and sicnknesses, and imperfections - to join with the resurrected saints in clouds to then meet Jesus in the air?

Not going to happen like that, keras.

Further unsupported opinions. Please cease wasting forum space with your personal notions and beliefs taught to you by false teachers.

The event of 1 Thess 4 is neither a rapture or a resurrection for those who remain. It is just a gathering to where Jesus is, a transportation, like what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39 As Matthew 24:31 says.
Maybe at that time, the Lord will heal our illnesses and cleanse our sins. But there will still be death in the Millennium. Only the resurrected martyrs, those killed for their faith during the GT, will not experience death again forever. Rev 20:4 And if you promote otherwise, you are then a false teacher yourself.

 

[keras]

No, the Christian Jews in Jerusalem not being raptured shows that the post trib view is wrong. The rapture may be pre-trib or it may not be pre-trib, but it is not post trib.

Reading prophesies like Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zechariah 13:7-9, Ezekiel 21:1-17 +, shows that after the Lord's Day of wrath, there will be very few Jews left alive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4 says how those few will survive in underground bunkers.
Then it will be all the true Christian people of the Lord, who will gather and re-populate all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10
All the Israelites of God, His people, bought by the blood of the Lamb, will experience the amazing blessing of God, as they live in peace and prosperity in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

 

[BABerean2]

No, the Christian Jews in Jerusalem not being raptured shows that the post trib view is wrong. The rapture may be pre-trib or it may not be pre-trib, but it is not post trib.

What happened to your "anytime" rapture of the past?

Have you changed your mind?

The end of the trib is found below.

Rev 11:15　 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"　(How long is "forever".)


Rev 11:16　 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,　


Rev 11:17　 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.　


Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　

The time of the judgment of "all" the dead is described by Christ in John 5:27-30. That text makes it plain that He is the judge at the bodily resurrection of "all" the dead. It is a time when some will be rewarded and others will be condemned. This is what we find above.

Joh 5:27　 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.　

Joh 5:28　 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice　

Joh 5:29　 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.　

Joh 5:30　 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.　

Revelation chapter 12 begins with a review of Church history, including the fall of Satan and the birth and death of the man-child, who rules with a rod of iron. Psalm 2 makes it clear that this is Christ.

This passage proves that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

The end is found at the end of chapter 11, and in the "harvest" of chapter 14, and when He comes "as a thief" in chapter 16, and in chapter 19, etc.


You will find in the article below that many of the Early Church Fathers held the Post-trib position.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural.
Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998
.

 

[Douggg]

What happened to your "anytime" rapture of the past?

Have you changed your mind?

The end of the trib is found below.

Rev 11:15　 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"　(How long is "forever".)

Anytime between now and when the rapture actually takes place. Could happen in the next minute. All other rapture views have a restrictive window that it must happen. The post trib view is very restrictive. The pre-trib view is less restrictive, because the window between now and the beginning of the 70th week is wider, but narrowing fast. The pre-wrath view mandates that the church be here during the first half of the 7 years. The mid-trib view mandates the rapture must take place in the middle part of the seven years, and that the church must be here for most of the first half..

Revelation 11:15 is not at the end of the end of the great tribulation, but near the beginning. The seventh angel sounds right after the two witnesses are killed on day 1260. Which begins a process of God taking the kingdoms of this world from Satan's domain. The first action will be to cast Satan and his angels down to earth - Babylon has fallen has fallen. God's judgement on the earth begins

Revelation 11:16-19, to understand those verses and the scene, you have to go back to chapter 4:1-4 when John is caught up to heaven and the twenty four elders are present, hearing what John is hearing as Jesus reveals the end times events beginning in Chapter 6. John's being caught up is part of the time of judging the dead which has three phases: the resurrection of the dead in Christ/the rapture; the resurrection of the martyr tribulation saints; the great white throne judgement at the end of the thousand years.

Obviously, the events of chapter 11 are not taking place at the end of the thousand years. So the reaction of the 24 elders is in respect to all three phases. You also have to go back to the beginning of Chapter 10, to understand that the 24 elders reaction, is after John receives the little book to eat.

Which, in chapter 10, it says in the days of the 7 angel's voice, the mystery of God would be revealed -

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So it is talking about the end times, since the prophets declared those, including the 70th week in Daniel 9. Chapter 10 and 11 covers the 70th week.

I might also add, do you see anything in Chapter 6 as Jesus removes the seals - of Satan being cast down, or the mark of the beast, or worshiping the beast for 42 months? No. Those are in Chapter 12 and 13.... after the 24 elders have seen the 7th angel in Revelation 10 voicing and in Revelation 11 sounding. So you have to put yourself in John's shoes and the 24 elders being there in heaven as all things are being revealed for the first time.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Man, Are you saying that I am not saved?

 

[BABerean2]

Anytime between now and when the rapture actually takes place. Could happen in the next minute. All other rapture views have a restrictive window that it must happen. The post trib view is very restrictive. The pre-trib view is less restrictive, because the window between now and the beginning of the 70th week is wider, but narrowing fast. The pre-wrath view mandates that the church be here during the first half of the 7 years. The mid-trib view mandates the rapture must take place in the middle part of the seven years, and that the church must be here for most of the first half..

Revelation 11:15 is not at the end of the end of the great tribulation, but near the beginning. The seventh angel sounds right after the two witnesses are killed on day 1260. Which begins a process of God taking the kingdoms of this world from Satan's domain. The first action will be to cast Satan and his angels down to earth - Babylon has fallen has fallen. God's judgement on the earth begins

Revelation 11:16-19, to understand those verses and the scene, you have to go back to chapter 4:1-4 when John is caught up to heaven and the twenty four elders are present, hearing what John is hearing as Jesus reveals the end times events beginning in Chapter 6. John's being caught up is part of the time of judging the dead which has three phases: the resurrection of the dead in Christ/the rapture; the resurrection of the martyr tribulation saints; the great white throne judgement at the end of the thousand years.

Obviously, the events of chapter 11 are not taking place at the end of the thousand years. So the reaction of the 24 elders is in respect to all three phases. You also have to go back to the beginning of Chapter 10, to understand that the 24 elders reaction, is after John receives the little book to eat.

Which, in chapter 10, it says in the days of the 7 angel's voice, the mystery of God would be revealed -

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So it is talking about the end times, since the prophets declared those, including the 70th week in Daniel 9. Chapter 10 and 11 covers the 70th week.

I might also add, do you see anything in Chapter 6 as Jesus removes the seals - of Satan being cast down, or the mark of the beast, or worshiping the beast for 42 months? No. Those are in Chapter 12 and 13.... after the 24 elders have seen the 7th angel in Revelation 10 voicing and in Revelation 11 sounding. So you have to put yourself in John's shoes and the 24 elders being there in heaven as all things are being revealed for the first time.

Based on the text below wicked angels have already been cast down and are now in chains.

2Pe_2:4　 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jud_1:6　 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;



The seals book found in Revelation 6 is a summary of the whole Book of Revelation.
Christ removes the seals one at a time and then John is told... "Come and see."

The Second Coming is found at the end of chapter 6 with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. If they are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, then the Lamb must be present. Some of the same characters hiding are also found in chapter 19. "captains" "mighty men", etc.

Daniels 70th week occurred in the first century, right after Daniel's 69th week.
It was the time that the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people, the Jews, before it was taken to the Gentiles. This is the reason that Christ commanded that the Gospel must be taken to His people first.

The covenant with many in Daniel 9:27, is the same New Covenant with many in Matthew 26:28.

We find below a direct connection between the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31, and the New Covenant Messiah in Daniel 9. Some of the exact text from Jeremiah 31 is found with the offering of sin at Calvary.

Heb 10:16　 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"　
Heb 10:17　 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."　
Heb 10:18　 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.　



Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

 

[Matthew Twentyfour]

The biggest advocate of the post-trib rapture in the whole world admits the rapture happens in Revelation 7 citing Christians will suddenly appear in heaven before the throne of God said Pastor Steven L. Anderson.

So much for the argument of a post-trib rapture. This is like Hal Lindsey saying Christians don't go to heaven in a rapture but does a U-turn in the clouds before coming back down to earth after the tribulation. Things aren't going so well when a huge post-tribber admits Christians do go to heaven in the rapture.

 

[BABerean2]

The biggest advocate of the post-trib rapture in the whole world admits the rapture happens in Revelation 7 citing Christians will suddenly appear in heaven before the throne of God said Pastor Steven L. Anderson.

So much for the argument of a post-trib rapture. This is like Hal Lindsey saying Christians don't go to heaven in a rapture but does a U-turn in the clouds before coming back down to earth after the tribulation. Things aren't going so well when a huge post-tribber admits Christians do go to heaven in the rapture.

I do not know how you came up with the idea that Pastor Steven Anderson is "The biggest advocate of the post-trib rapture in the whole world".

Pastor Carl Gallups is probably better known and is closer to an understanding of the text.

The most famous prophecy author during my lifetime said that the post-trib view is the oldest.
His words are found below.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the
post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998
............................................................................
Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf