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The Book of Enoch?

Micah888

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The Book of Jasher should be in the Bible?
There is truth in the non-canonical writings, and God allowed His prophets and apostles to selectively quote from various books. So whatever is included in the Bible is valid. What is not included can be read as simply the writings of men. For example, there is a historical narrative in 1 and 2 Maccabees. There is nothing wrong with accepting that as a proper historical narrative.
 
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Kaon

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Let's stay focused on what Christ regarded as "all the Scriptures". At that time the Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh) was "all the Scriptures", and they consisted of 24 books.

That is not even the issue. The issue today is that Christians want to know exactly what is the biblical canon. And for the Old Testament, it is only those 39 books which we have in our Bibles.

And that is exactly why you should pay close attention to what He said in Luke 24, and BELIEVE IT.

This is where you are completely mistaken. For Bible-believing Christian the Bible canon is indeed the Word of God. All other writings cannot be thus regarded.

I have given you the Scriptures, so why don't you give them the attention they deserve. Christ called the Hebrew canon "all the Scriptures" and said that all of them spoke about Him.

Christ warned about FALSE DOCTRINE. And dismissing His words about the Old Testament would be false doctrine.

Christ is the Word of God; He cannot be contained in a canon. Surely you understand this, and why a canon is a man-made object - books chosen by men to determine the spiritual nourishment of men. Men leading men.

The New Covenant guarantees the Word of God on your heart so that you won't need a minister or canon to teach you.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Man on fire said The Book of Jasher should be in the Bible? It is mentioned? I read some of it. It reads more like Jewish folklore than The Word. What looks to what may have happened, is that some books were burnt, destroyed, lost, or hidden over various trials and persecutions Israel went through.
All the books were burnt that were in the temple in Jerusalem. They were rewritten by Esdras and his forty scribes...but some they withheld to be revealed in the last days,

Enoch's writings were not only kept by the nation of Israel but other nations around had their own copies, and the Israelites who were in Ethiopia/Abyssinia before even the Babylonian invasion had their own copy of Enoch.
As to the Book of Jasher -the real one, not pseudo ones [Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com], it is indeed history, and I believe it was written by Moses, who had copies of the writings of the patriarchs, and he also enlarged upon his own history in that writing, and like the Pentetueh, Joshua finished the end of it, writing the rest of the story after Moses' death up til they went into Canaan..
After that, the book of Joshua is history, then Judges, the two Samuels, Ruth, 1,2 Chronicles, 1,2 Kings, and Esra, Nehemiah, Maccabees, and so on.
Even the Book of Acts is history.
The book of Jasher has not one single thing in it that contradicts anything in the Torah, the histories, or the writings, but it does make many things clear that are not clear if you do not have that history. Miriam the prophet, Abel the prophet, why Moses supposed the Israelites would have known that he was to be their deliverer (because of Miriam's prophesy), and many, many other things that make even history of the nations of the time Israel was in Egypt (210 years) known and placed . Little nuggets like "how Naples got its name", and other such. And even how Moses got an Ethiopian (Cushite) wife, and why his children were so young they sat upon a camel with his Midianite wife, Zephorah, when he was going to Egypt as deliverer and was met by Aaron; and even why Aaron, as a Levite, had the freedom to depart Egypt at will.
It also tells the truth about Moses' rod, which was the true Sceptre God gave Adam to rule earth with...and how it ended up in Reuel's garden.
It also tells who the Pharoah was at the Exodus -a little dwarf with a beard to his feet, who was dubbed "Ahud/short" in name, by the Egyptians, and that he had only reigned 4 years and was removed from Egypt and taken to Ninevah -a province ruled by Egypt, when all his soldiers were drowned and Egypt was totally ruined.
It also tells that he was the Pharoah who with whom God had a controversy to settle with the all the Pharoahs of Egypt, after that, until the time of Ezekiel( 29:3), for he is the one who said "my river is my own and I have made it for myself", denying YHWH, whom he did not believe in when Moses told him to let YHWH's people go.
God settles controversies, even centuries or millenniums later, unless those in the same office as th eoriginal offender repents and confesses the sins of the fathers, and returns to God. -and he had made a "river", indeed, because satellite images, I think it is, prove there was a "canal" exactly where the Suez canal was later made.
God dried it up.
There is so much history in Jasher that corroborates the Bible that it is really a very good companion to what we do have, so as to understand what has been lost to our understanding, by it's not being available.[/Quote]
 
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Jipsah

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Christ is the Word of God; He cannot be contained in a canon. Surely you understand this, and why a canon is a man-made object - books chosen by men to determine the spiritual nourishment of men. Men leading men.
So you can assume anything you want to be Holy Writ; Enoch, The Book of Mormon, the Urantia Book, the Quran, or the Necronomicon. I mean, hey, there must be something true to be found in those books, so why exclude it?

The New Covenant guarantees the Word of God on your heart so that you won't need a minister or canon to teach you.
So if one wanted to base their Christian ideas on the Analects of Confucius, that would work just fine. After all, it is a wonderful work of ethical philosophy and contains much of wisdom and truth. Who's to say that the Holy Spirit can't use it to turn our hearts toward Him, right? Might just change our understanding of Scripture altogether...
 
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Kaon

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So you can assume anything you want to be Holy Writ; Enoch, The Book of Mormon, the Urantia Book, the Quran, or the Necronomicon. I mean, hey, there must be something true to be found in those books, so why exclude it?

So if one wanted to base their Christian ideas on the Analects of Confucius, that would work just fine. After all, it is a wonderful work of ethical philosophy and contains much of wisdom and truth. Who's to say that the Holy Spirit can't use it to turn our hearts toward Him, right? Might just change our understanding of Scripture altogether...


That is the faith you have to have in your Father - that if you seek Him with all of your might then He won't leave you astray.

The entire world is full of lies, and a lot less pretty than most people want to believe. We are fighting a spiritual war; the last thing that would be prudent is to confuse the actual Living Word of God with a canonical text compiled by men. That Living Word is the same One that the Most High God said would be placed on our hearts so that we won't even need to ask our neighbor who God is.

We have to believe that, be wise as serpents but gentle like doves. If you know that history is full of deceit and , then you need to entertain the fact that written text could be affected - up to the limit God the Father allows.

You can't forge the actual Word of God; There are no set number of texts that describe Him. The canonical texts are just as meritorious for spiritual education and edification as the apocrypha. That is because it is up to the individual to discern their own spiritual trajectory. It isn't up to men.
 
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Man on Fire

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All the books were burnt that were in the temple in Jerusalem. They were rewritten by Esdras and his forty scribes...but some they withheld to be revealed in the last days,

Enoch's writings were not only kept by the nation of Israel but other nations around had their own copies, and the Israelites who were in Ethiopia/Abyssinia before even the Babylonian invasion had their own copy of Enoch.
As to the Book of Jasher -the real one, not pseudo ones [Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com], it is indeed history, and I believe it was written by Moses, who had copies of the writings of the patriarchs, and he also enlarged upon his own history in that writing, and like the Pentetueh, Joshua finished the end of it, writing the rest of the story after Moses' death up til they went into Canaan..
After that, the book of Joshua is history, then Judges, the two Samuels, Ruth, 1,2 Chronicles, 1,2 Kings, and Esra, Nehemiah, Maccabees, and so on.
Even the Book of Acts is history.
The book of Jasher has not one single thing in it that contradicts anything in the Torah, the histories, or the writings, but it does make many things clear that are not clear if you do not have that history. Miriam the prophet, Abel the prophet, why Moses supposed the Israelites would have known that he was to be their deliverer (because of Miriam's prophesy), and many, many other things that make even history of the nations of the time Israel was in Egypt (210 years) known and placed . Little nuggets like "how Naples got its name", and other such. And even how Moses got an Ethiopian (Cushite) wife, and why his children were so young they sat upon a camel with his Midianite wife, Zephorah, when he was going to Egypt as deliverer and was met by Aaron; and even why Aaron, as a Levite, had the freedom to depart Egypt at will.
It also tells the truth about Moses' rod, which was the true Sceptre God gave Adam to rule earth with...and how it ended up in Reuel's garden.
It also tells who the Pharoah was at the Exodus -a little dwarf with a beard to his feet, who was dubbed "Ahud/short" in name, by the Egyptians, and that he had only reigned 4 years and was removed from Egypt and taken to Ninevah -a province ruled by Egypt, when all his soldiers were drowned and Egypt was totally ruined.
It also tells that he was the Pharoah who with whom God had a controversy to settle with the all the Pharoahs of Egypt, after that, until the time of Ezekiel( 29:3), for he is the one who said "my river is my own and I have made it for myself", denying YHWH, whom he did not believe in when Moses told him to let YHWH's people go.
God settles controversies, even centuries or millenniums later, unless those in the same office as th eoriginal offender repents and confesses the sins of the fathers, and returns to God. -and he had made a "river", indeed, because satellite images, I think it is, prove there was a "canal" exactly where the Suez canal was later made.
God dried it up.
There is so much history in Jasher that corroborates the Bible that it is really a very good companion to what we do have, so as to understand what has been lost to our understanding, by it's not being available.

The following is part of a discussion I was part of on Reddit:

Dr. Peterson is quite accurate to state that the Biblical text is like a "hyper-linked" web document, with everything connected to something else in the text. The people in Jesus' day read the Bible with that "hyper-link" in their mind, as should we. From: Jesus and the abandonment on the Cross • r/JordanPeterson

I don't use the term "Hyper-link." What the poster on reddit is refering to is The Holy Ghost. Someone with The Holy Spirit may have The Word in him. The Holy Ghost is a teacher and a councilor. He dwells on the Law of the Lord.

Someone who dwells on God's Law, and has God's Holy Spirit, may find what I have been referring to as The Ties That Bind. Example: Have Gun Will Travel : Christianity And The Ties That Bind | Christian Forums

When reading Books and Documents, God is there with you. He points out things. Given someone cares to look at my blog, and various other things I have done over social media, various posts or tweets I have made are linked or tied together in particular ways. I am not the only man to have had this. The Bible may have been put together by various men of the Spirit of God. Many of them may not have been just academics picking and choosing which books to make canon. In Apocrypha, there are things, like in the Book of Jasher and the Book of Enoch, that may be exaggerations or not quite right. This is why they are not in the Bible. Someone without this kind of thought, without the Holy Spirit, getting into Apocrypha like it is The Bible, may be off. The Spirit of God works through what you know. Given you need false things to be true, you may have a hard time listening.

Apocrypha should only be read by mature Christians with the Holy Spirit as guided by The Holy Spirit.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I believe Enoch is sacred writing. So did Noah, Abraham, Shem, Job, Hannah, Moses, David, Jesus, the Apostles, Jude, Barnabus, and the Israelites in Ethiopia, plus exceedingly many more souls down through the ages.
I believe it lays the foundations of all truths revealed for the Law and the Gospel to be laid upon, which foundations were never re-laid after that, but woven through them as truth.
I believe it is the first book of eschatology, and was to be revealed as a comfort to the elect in the time of the second consummation of sin, on earth, for those who repent after they see the rapture, and turn to Messiah and believe in His name for salvation,, but who must "endure to the end", to be saved.
 
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Man on Fire

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God's plan is The Kingdom of God. There are so many small things many Christians may end up hung up on. I try to stay out of it. It is clear that the Bible refers to the Book of Enoch in Jude. It is also clear that The Book of Enoch has a lot of relevance in terms of Prophecy.

Nothing new happens under the sun? (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11)
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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From this thread:
About the current book called "Book of Jasher"...





CG.jpg
 
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Jipsah

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I believe Enoch is sacred writing. So did Noah, Abraham, Shem, Job, Hannah, Moses, David, Jesus, the Apostles, Jude, Barnabus, and the Israelites in Ethiopia, plus exceedingly many more souls down through the ages.
Asked those folks, did you?

I believe it lays the foundations of all truths revealed for the Law and the Gospel to be laid upon, which foundations were never re-laid after that, but woven through them as truth.
A shame that God didn't manage to get such a seminal work into what most of Christendom considers holy writ, isn't it? And curious how such a seminal work should also contain such a large quantity of stuff that is observably, and often ludicrously, untrue.

Personally I believe "Enoch" to be a work of fiction, end to end. There's way too much arrant falsehood there leave any bits of it untainted by the lies that surround them.

But I actually believe the most damning argument against it is that it so often seduces believers into giving it precedence over the Scriptures that the Church as a whole has always testified to be the true Word of God. It causes people to ignore the fact that it is largely a tissue of lies, and to place it as, in your words, " the foundations of all truths revealed for the Law and the Gospel".
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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A shame that God didn't manage to get such a seminal work into what most of Christendom considers holy writ


The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church


And


• Tertullian - On the Apparel of Women - Book 1 - Chapter 3:1-3 (160-220 A.D.)
“I am aware that The Scripture Of Enoch which has assigned this order of action to angels, Is Not Received By Some" .......

(Notice that he says that "The Scripture Of Enoch" is not received by "Some" but he doesn't say that it's not received by "All" Though. So, "Some" Early Christians did Except It As Scripture.)




A shame that God didn't manage to get such a seminal work into what most of Christendom considers holy writ


The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, But Not For This Generation, But For A Remote One Which Is For To Come .......

• 1 Enoch 1:1-3

Books of Enoch
 
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Yekcidmij

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Are you a member of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church? Because if not, maybe you should be since you clearly consider them authoritative in canonical works.

And


• Tertullian - On the Apparel of Women - Book 1 - Chapter 3:1-3 (160-220 A.D.)
“I am aware that The Scripture Of Enoch which has assigned this order of action to angels, Is Not Received By Some" .......

(Notice that he says that "The Scripture Of Enoch" is not received by "Some" but he doesn't say that it's not received by "All" Though. So, "Some" Early Christians did Except It As Scripture.)

Tertullian's arguments really are poor here. He supposed that Noah passed on the teachings of Enoch, but this is based on unwarranted supposition rather than any actual evidence. Secondly, he supposed that if that were not the case, then Noah would have reproduced the entire work from scratch after the flood. But this is an even more fanciful reason than the first.

Tertullian's real reason for accepting Enoch (as he mentions) seems to be because he thought it talked about the second coming of Christ and because it was quoted by Jude. And this is the same reason anyone else might consider it. So when you quote Tertullian, you're really only begging the question, as his underlying reasoning probably isn't that much different from yours, and not adding any new information or reasoning. Your reasons for preferring Enoch are pretty much the same as Tertullian's, and the reasons for rejecting Enoch would be the same as the reasons why Tertullian's rationale was simply incorrect.

Your arguments appeal to a couple of authorities, one of which you probably inconsistently consider authoritative and the other who uses bad reasoning in this case.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Are you a member of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church? Because if not, maybe you should be since you clearly consider them authoritative in canonical works.
Tertullian's arguments really are poor here. He supposed that Noah passed on the teachings of Enoch, but this is based on unwarranted supposition rather than any actual evidence. Secondly, he supposed that if that were not the case, then Noah would have reproduced the entire work from scratch after the flood. But this is an even more fanciful reason than the first.

Tertullian's real reason for accepting Enoch (as he mentions) seems to be because he thought it talked about the second coming of Christ and because it was quoted by Jude. And this is the same reason anyone else might consider it. So when you quote Tertullian, you're really only begging the question, as his underlying reasoning probably isn't that much different from yours, and not adding any new information or reasoning. Your reasons for preferring Enoch are pretty much the same as Tertullian's, and the reasons for rejecting Enoch would be the same as the reasons why Tertullian's rationale was simply incorrect.

Your arguments appeal to a couple of authorities, one of which you probably inconsistently consider authoritative and the other who uses bad reasoning in this case.




The Fact remains that "Some" Early Christians considered The Book of Enoch Holy Scripture in Tertullian's Day and The Fact also remains that there are about 45 to 50 Million Christian People Today that believe The Book Of Enoch is Holy Scripture:

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church - Wikipedia
 
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Yekcidmij

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Since you think the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is authoritative enough to determine the canon, why aren't you a member?


This Thread is about The Book of Enoch. It isn’t about my church membership.
 
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Jipsah

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The Fact remains that "Some" Early Christians considered The Book of Enoch Holy Scripture in Tertullian's Day
But somehow it only ended up as part of the canon of a small group in Ethiopia. Hmmmm...maybe because it was correctly perceived as a work of fiction?

and The Fact also remains that there are about 45 to 50 Million Christian People Today that believe The Book Of Enoch is Holy Scripture
And quite a few million Muslims believe that their Koran is the definitive revelation from God. They're wrong too.
 
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Jipsah

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Since you think the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is authoritative enough to determine the canon, why aren't you a member?
Seems like a valid question. Apparently they're the only part of the Church that has embraced what the "Enoch" fans believe is the most important book of all. If one believes that "Enoch" is such an essential part of Scripture, seems that they' want to align themselves with the folks who agree with them on that point rather than those who don't.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Seems like a valid question. Apparently they're the only part of the Church that has embraced what the "Enoch" fans believe is the most important book of all. If one believes that "Enoch" is such an essential part of Scripture, seems that they' want to align themselves with the folks who agree with them on that point rather than those who don't.


The Essenes and other Jewish Sects believed it was scripture before Christianity.

Many Christians believed it was scripture in Tertulian’s time.

Many Christians who are not Ethiopian Orthodox believe it is scripture in the modern day.
 
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Jipsah

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The Essenes and other Jewish Sects believed it was scripture before Christianity.
Never included in any Hebrew canon, though was it? And I 'spect that precisely what the Essenes believed or didn't regarding the authenticity of "Enoch" are largely conjectural. The Eessenes aren't around to say one way or another.

Many Christians believed it was scripture in Tertulian’s time.
many Christians also embrace the Book of Mormon and a variety of similar private revelations. So what? The fact remains that "Enoch" includes large quantities of absolute unarguable hogwash, which some of us believe that something claiming to be a revelation from God and angels should not.

Many Christians who are not Ethiopian Orthodox believe it is scripture in the modern day.
Yeah, it's probably a lot more entertaining than real Scripture. But there are just too many obvious, observable, blatant lies in it for it to be God inspired. You have to be willing to suspend disbelief a lot to swallow "Enoch".
 
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