The Book of Enoch?

Jipsah

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Not a sweeping generalization. Show me the exact verses.
Well, let's start from the beginning, shall we?

CHAPTER LXXII.
1. The book of the courses of the luminaries of the heaven, the relations of each, according to their classes, their dominion and their seasons, according to their names and places of origin, and according to their months, which Uriel, the holy angel, who was with me, who is their guide, showed me; and he showed me all their laws exactly as they are, and how it is with regard to all the years of the world and unto eternity, till the new creation

Now right out the gate the writer of "Enoch" is lying. The information he gives out here allegedly coming from "Uriel the holy angel" , being, as we shall see, observably false, cannot have have come from an angel.

3. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other in accurately corresponding order: also many windows to the right and left of these portals.

Portals, as in doors? Really? And windows, forsooth? THis would look great in an ancient Greek myth, not is what is supposed to be hol scripture. In simplest terms, there are no windows or doors in space that the sun goes into or comes out of. It's a lie. The lie is based on the terrestrial observation that the sun rises and sets at different at different points of the horizon in different seasons, and that it "disappears" at sunset and reappears at dawn. The trouble problem comes when you realize that the sun never disappears, it just moves away from the observer, and is visible somewhere in the world at all times. It doesn't go into any doors, or come out of any. An angel, holy or otherwise, would have known that. The writer of "Enoch" obviously did not, he just described what it looked like to him, i.e., he lied.

4. And first there goes forth the great luminary, named the Sun, and his circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and he is quite filled with illuminating and heating fire. 5. The chariot on which he ascends, the wind drives, and the sun goes down from the heaven and returns through the north in order to reach the east, and is so guided that he comes to the appropriate (lit. 'that') portal and shines in the face of the heaven.

So the sun's really big, he managed to get that one (the Blind Hog Principal again). But he immediately ran off the rails again. The sun, so the imaginary angel tells us, ascends on a chariot, which is propelled by the wind. I don't think that requires much refutation. Then, we're told, the sun has to go north to get to the east, presumably to get to the correct door so he can pop above the horizon at the seasonally correct place? You ready to swallow the sun changing directions during its ride on chariot? Me neither. Pure fantasy.

6. In this way he rises in the first month in the great portal, which is the fourth ⌈those six portals in the cast⌉. 7. And in that fourth portal from which the sun rises in the first month are twelve window-openings, from which proceed a flame when they are opened in their season. 8. When the sun rises in the heaven, he comes forth through that fourth portal thirty mornings in succession, and sets accurately in the fourth portal in the west of the heaven. 9. And during this period the day becomes daily longer and the night nightly shorter to the thirtieth morning. 10. On that day the day is longer than the night by a ninth part, and the day amounts exactly to ten parts and the night to eight parts. 11. And the sun rises from that fourth portal, and sets in the fourth and returns to the fifth portal of the east thirty mornings, and rises from it and sets in the fifth portal. 12. And then the day becomes longer by †two† parts and amounts to eleven parts, and the night becomes shorter and amounts to seven parts.

And here we have the very creative explanation, direct from the "Holy angel Uriel", that explains the sessons - as the seasons exist in the middle east. The nips in and out of its various doors, and its light shines through its various windows, none of which, unfortunately for ""Enoch's" credibility, actually exist. Bogus as a $17.2365 dollar bill.

It goes on this way, relentlessly, lie on top of lie, page after page. Sheer codswallop.

Here's one I nabbed at random, on the origin of wind. It's a good 'un:

1 And at the ends of the earth I saw twelve portals open to all the quarters (of the heaven), from which the winds go forth and blow over the earth. 2. Three of them are open on the face (i.e. the east) of the heavens, and three in the west, and three on the right (i.e. the south) of the heaven, and three on the left (i.e. the north). 3. And the three first are those of the east, and three are of †the north, and three [after those on the left] of the south†, and three of the west. 4. Through four of these come winds of blessing and prosperity, and from those eight come hurtful winds: when they are sent, they bring destruction on all the earth and on the water upon it, and on all who dwell thereon, and on everything which is in the water and on the land.

So our "angel" confieds in us that wind comes from doors in the sky or in heaven or some such, at very specific points, and some of them are good, and some of them are bad. Again, creative, and again, utterly untrue.

What need to go on? The entire section that deals with "The Course of the Heavenly Luminaries" is a complete fraud.

So how much leaven does it require to leaven that lump?


And don’t try to make this thread about geocentricism vs heliocentrism.
Not necessary. "Enoch" is a steaming pile whichever perspective you prefer.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Portals, as in doors? Really? And windows, forsooth? THis would look great in an ancient Greek myth, not is what is supposed to be hol scripture.


And it shall be
That he who flees from the noise of the fear
Shall fall into the pit,
And he who comes up from the midst of the pit
Shall be caught in the snare;

For The Windows From On High Are Open,
the foundations of the earth are shaken.
• Isaiah 24:18



Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the
Lord of hosts,
“If I will not Open For You The Windows Of Heaven
pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.
Malachi 3:10
 
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Jipsah

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For The Windows From On High Are Open
Presumably you believe that St. Peter is actually a rock, as well.

When is it do you reckon the sun heads north on its transit from one "portal" to the other? Howcome no one has noticed it going in one door and out another?
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Presumably you believe that St. Peter is actually a rock, as well.

When is it do you reckon the sun heads north on its transit from one "portal" to the other? Howcome no one has noticed it going in one door and out another?


I quoted Holy Scripture talking about The Windows of Heaven.

There are Windows of Heaven.

It’s Not Greek mythology. It’s Holy Scripture.
 
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Rubiks

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So what's the syllogism at play here?

- If a work is quoted, then the entirety of the work is endorsed.

This has to be the principle in play otherwise your argument doesn't work. So let's follow it through to it's conclusion:

-In Acts 17:28 Paul quotes Aratus' Phenomena 5.
-Therefore, Paul endoreses the entirety of Aratus' work.

-Paul endoreses Aratus' Phenomena in it's entirety.
-Therefore, Paul believes Zeus is god.

This seems to be where your logic has to go.

Jude says its the actual words of Enoch though, which couldn't possibly be true unless 1 Enoch, is in fact, a divinely inspired book.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Jude says its the actual words of Enoch though, which couldn't possibly be true unless 1 Enoch, is in fact, a divinely inspired book.

And Paul quotes the actual words found in Aratus' Phenomena, which couldn't possibly be true unless Phenomena was divinely inspired. Right? So therefore, Zeus is god.

Now, of course that's ridiculous, but this is where your logic seems to have to go. So I have two problems with your post. The first is that you didn't deal with the logic presented which is why I restated it (also ridiculous since this is a forum and should be able to easily read what I posted). The second is a problem in your assumption that because a part of a work is cited that therefore the whole work is "scripture." But why is that necessarily the case? Why make that assumption? It's clearly a fallacy of composition if nothing else, and certainly doesn't seem warranted as an assumption.
 
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Rubiks

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And Paul quotes the actual words found in Aratus' Phenomena, which couldn't possibly be true unless Phenomena was divinely inspired. Right? So therefore, Zeus is god.

Now, of course that's ridiculous, but this is where your logic seems to have to go. So I have two problems with your post. The first is that you didn't deal with the logic presented which is why I restated it (also ridiculous since this is a forum and should be able to easily read what I posted). The second is a problem in your assumption that because a part of a work is cited that therefore the whole work is "scripture." But why is that necessarily the case? Why make that assumption? It's clearly a fallacy of composition if nothing else, and certainly doesn't seem warranted as an assumption.

Jude says that it was the actual prophesizing words of Enoch. Do you believe this? was Enoch a false prophet?

I see no reason for a book to be "partially inspired." If some of it is inspired, Occam's razor would suggest the whole thing is inspired.
 
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Yekcidmij

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Jude says that it was the actual prophesizing words of Enoch. Do you believe this? was Enoch a false prophet?

This doesn't answer the question. Why consider every utterance equally valid? Was every oracle of Balaam equally valid, or just the ones as applied in Numbers? Was Balaam always a prophet in everything he said or just the few things the bible attributes to him as being valid?

So rather than addressing the problems presented, we've added new ones. Now, based on your reasoning, it seems Zeus and various other Semitic deities are gods as believed by Aratus and Balaam.

I see no reason for a book to be "partially inspired."

Yes, I know this is your assumption, which is why I asked "why make that assumption?" It seems that making that assumption probably leads to conclusions to which you don't hold. The inconsistency seems indicative that the assumption is to be discarded.

If some of it is inspired, Occam's razor would suggest the whole thing is inspired.

(1) Your just described a fallacy of composition, which has nothing to do with Occam's Razor.
(2) Assuming you could even overcome a problem in the logic, it's still not clear how Occam's Razor is applicable here. Perhaps you can explain, but I suspect it's an abuse of the rule of thumb, as is typically the case when Occam's Razor comes up in theological discussions. Also note, it is a rule of thumb, a heuristic, not a law of the universe, a law of logic, a law of math or anything of the sort. The fact that you don't seem to be aware of this is telling.
(3) If Occam's Razor were applicable here, it seems you're the one that has an additional assumption that I don't have (namely, you assume that a work cannot be "partially inspired"). So therefore, by Occam's Razor, I win :D.
 
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Jipsah

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was Enoch a false prophet?
Whoever wrote "Enoch" was no prophet at all.

I see no reason for a book to be "partially inspired." If some of it is inspired, Occam's razor would suggest the whole thing is inspired.
And if big chunks of the thing are bare-faced lies, then the whole thing is a lie, ne c'est pas? That's certainly the case with "Enoch".
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Whoever wrote "Enoch" was no prophet at all.

And if big chunks of the thing are bare-faced lies, then the whole thing is a lie, ne c'est pas? That's certainly the case with "Enoch".

I never wrote this . Rubiks was the person who wrote this on Post #428.

You are falsely attributing the quote to me.
 
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Jipsah

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I never wrote this . Rubiks was the person who wrote this on Post #428.
You are falsely attributing the quote to me.
My bad. Now, how do you respond to "Enoch's" notion that the sun heads north before rising in the east? Was that how it worked back then, or was he just making it up as he went. I think the latter.

You seem strangely reluctant to address the stuff in "Enoch" that is unarguably false. Instead you quibble about figurative "windows" when "Enoch", it seems to me, meant his "windows" literally , with flames visible through them, of a piece with his literal "portals" through which the sun comes and goes. How much fantasy are we expected to explain away before we conclude that "Enoch" was ,making it up from whole cloth?
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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My bad. Now, how do you respond to "Enoch's" notion that the sun heads north before rising in the east? Was that how it worked back then, or was he just making it up as he went. I think the latter.

You seem strangely reluctant to address the stuff in "Enoch" that is unarguably false. Instead you quibble about figurative "windows" when "Enoch", it seems to me, meant his "windows" literally , with flames visible through them, of a piece with his literal "portals" through which the sun comes and goes. How much fantasy are we expected to explain away before we conclude that "Enoch" was ,making it up from whole cloth?


I don't know. I'll try and research it.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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This is interesting :


Also another phenomenon I saw in regard to the Lightnings: how some of The Stars Arise And Become Lightnings and cannot part with Their New Form.

• 1 Enoch 44

Books of Enoch




And he said unto them, I beheld Satan As Lightning fall from heaven.
• Luke 10:18





And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw A Star Fall from heaven unto the earth: and To Him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
• Revelation 9:1



The mystery of
the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven Stars Are The Angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
• Revelation 1:20



 
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In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.


Genesis 7:11

Awesome, thanks for that scripture.
 
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