The Book of Enoch?

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Never included in any Hebrew canon, though was it? And I 'spect that precisely what the Essenes believed or didn't regarding the authenticity of "Enoch" are largely conjectural. The Eessenes aren't around to say one way or another.

Yet, Fragments of Enoch were found in Qumran Cave 7 weren't they:


7Q5 - Wikipedia
Dead Sea scrolls/4Q201 - Wikisource, the free online library
Dead Sea Scrolls -- Enoch
Qumran Caves (BiblePlaces.com)
Qumran Caves - Wikipedia
Qumran - Wikipedia

 

[Yekcidmij]

Yet, Fragments of Enoch were found in Qumran Cave 7 weren't they:

So what's the syllogism here?

If found at Qumran, then scripture....

And you think this is a sound argument?

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

So what's the syllogism here?

If found at Qumran, then scripture....

And you think this is a sound argument?

Jipsah posted that the authenticity of Enoch with The Essenes was conjectural so I was just pointing out that parts of Enoch were found along with the rest of the scriptures there like Isaiah, The Psalms, The Torah etc.

 

[Jipsah]

Jipsah posted that the authenticity of Enoch with The Essenes was conjectural

No, I said that saying that they considered it Scripture is conjectural. Just because they read it doesn't mean that they considered it holy writ. And as I said, it never appeared in any Hebrew canon, did it?

so I was just pointing out that parts of Enoch were found along with the rest of the scriptures there like Isaiah, The Psalms, The Torah etc.

If archaeologists excavate my house a few millennia from now they'll find fragments of the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Analects of Confucius, the Bhagavad Gita, and a bunch of other books that I read just for entertainment. Should those future scholars conclude that I considered all those things Holy Scripture? If so then they'd be much mistaken. Reading the Koran doesn't make me a Muslim, quite the opposite. I consider them all works of fiction, as I do "Enoch". (OK, I don't consider the Analects fiction, it's a work of ethical philosophy that provides a remarkable insight into the cultures which it has influenced over the centuries.)

But even if all the Essenes had with one accord declared "Enoch" to be the very Word of God, they'd simply have been wrong. They had no way of knowing how much of it was simply false. That great hunks of it presented as the testimony of angels was absurdly and hilariously false. The people in those days didn't have the means to look into space and observe the wonders of God's design as we do, or to know what is happening on the other side of the earth from where they were as we do. It was easy to sell them a bill of goods spoken in pious tones and claiming celestial revelations. Thy didn't realize that the universe as described in "Enoch" is a nonsensical hodge-podge worthy pf a Rube Goldberg cartoon. They had no way of seeing the elegant beauty of God's actual design as opposed to the ridiculous kludge presented in "Enoch". We, however, do.

The long and the short is that God's Word doesn't contain lies. "Enoch" does contain lies. Ergo "Enoch" is not the Word of God, no matter how many people think it is or would like for it to be.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

No, I said that saying that they considered it Scripture is conjectural. Just because they read it doesn't mean that they considered it holy writ. And as I said, it never appeared in any Hebrew canon, did it?

The Hebrew Canon was decided After Christianity in 90 A.D. After

Now, let that sink in as to why Enoch wasn’t included in the Hebrew Canon.

 

[Jipsah]

The Hebrew Canon was decided After Christianity in 90 A.D. After

Now, let that sink in as to why Enoch wasn’t included in the Hebrew Canon.

Probably becaise it was perceived as a work of fiction, as in reality it is.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Probably becaise it was perceived as a work of fiction, as in reality it is.

Jude wouldn’t quote it if it wasn’t true.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Jude wouldn’t quote it if it wasn’t true.

So what's the syllogism at play here?

- If a work is quoted, then the entirety of the work is endorsed.

This has to be the principle in play otherwise your argument doesn't work. So let's follow it through to it's conclusion:

-In Acts 17:28 Paul quotes Aratus' Phenomena 5.
-Therefore, Paul endoreses the entirety of Aratus' work.

-Paul endoreses Aratus' Phenomena in it's entirety.
-Therefore, Paul believes Zeus is god.

This seems to be where your logic has to go.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

So what's the syllogism at play here?

- If a work is quoted, then the entirety of the work is endorsed.

This has to be the principle in play otherwise your argument doesn't work. So let's follow it through to it's conclusion:

-In Acts 17:28 Paul quotes Aratus' Phenomena 5.
-Therefore, Paul endoreses the entirety of Aratus' work.

-Paul endoreses Aratus' Phenomena in it's entirety.
-Therefore, Paul believes Zeus is god.

This seems to be where your logic has to go.

That’s not even close to being the same thing.

The difference is that they didn’t find pagan writings at Qumran. They found Holy Hebrew Scriptures.

So that analogy doesn’t work.

 

[Jipsah]

Jude wouldn’t quote it if it wasn’t true.

He didn't quote any of the utter claptrap that describes how an angel allegedly told him the universe works. Every word of that stuff is a lie. The part Jude quoted comes under the "even a blind hog picks up an acorn every now and then" rule. "Enoch" is fiction. And not even very good fiction at that. I'd even go do far as to say it's diabolical, because it seduces people away from the actual Bible.

Seriously, have you ever seen anyone as dedicated to the Gospels as the single-minded Enochians are to "Enoch"? Seems a load of rubbish supposedly talking about the Messiah to come gets more attention than the real-life accounts of the actual Messiah Who is Savior of the Universe. It turns people's eyes away from our Lord Christ and toward Watchers and Nephilim and 800' tall giants and alleged angels who either were no angels at all or were simply products of the author's imagination, and all suchlike foolishness. What more could the Father of Lies ask for?

Satan's magnum opus is The Koran. It's a poisoned version of the Bible that has led and is leading untold millions to destruction. But the Koran is of almost zero effectiveness against Christians. So Satan used the same technique he used in the Koran, the subtle mixing of Biblical truth with infernal brimstone, so that "Enoch" could be used amongst Christians to turn their attention away from the truths of God and onto stories and fables.

 

[Jipsah]

That’s not even close to being the same thing.The difference is that they didn’t find pagan writings at Qumran. They found Holy Hebrew Scriptures.So that analogy doesn’t work.

And apparently by your logic the fact that a writing was found at Qumran makes it a Holy Hebrew Scripture. Head you win, tails we lose. Got it! <Laugh>

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

He didn't quote any of the utter claptrap that describes how an angel allegedly told him the universe works. Every word of that stuff is a lie. The part Jude quoted comes under the "even a blind hog picks up an acorn every now and then" rule. "Enoch" is fiction. And not even very good fiction at that. I'd even go do far as to say it's diabolical, because it seduces people away from the actual Bible.

Seriously, have you ever seen anyone as dedicated to the Gospels as the single-minded Enochians are to "Enoch"? Seems a load of rubbish supposedly talking about the Messiah to come gets more attention than the real-life accounts of the actual Messiah Who is Savior of the Universe. It turns people's eyes away from our Lord Christ and toward Watchers and Nephilim and 800' tall giants and alleged angels who either were no angels at all or were simply products of the author's imagination, and all suchlike foolishness. What more could the Father of Lies ask for?

Satan's magnum opus is The Koran. It's a poisoned version of the Bible that has led and is leading untold millions to destruction. But the Koran is of almost zero effectiveness against Christians. So Satan used the same technique he used in the Koran, the subtle mixing of Biblical truth with infernal brimstone, so that "Enoch" could be used amongst Christians to turn their attention away from the truths of God and onto stories and fables.

No, what you wrote isn't true at all.

Enoch Absolutely Glorifies The Lord Jesus Christ 100% :

In those days the Lord bade them to summon and testify to the children of earth concerning their wisdom: Show it unto them; for ye are their guides, and a recompense over the whole earth. For I And MY SON will be united with them for ever in the paths of uprightness in their lives;and ye shall have peace: rejoice, ye children of uprightness. Amen.
• 1 Enoch 105:1-2



And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And His Name before the Head of Days.

Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His Name was named before the Lord of Spirits.

He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And He Shall Be The Light Of The Gentiles,
And The Hope Of Those Who Are Troubled Of Heart.

All Who Dwell On Earth Shall Fall Down And Worship Before Him,
And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.

And for this reason hath He been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.
• 1 Enoch 48:2-6



And from henceforth there shall be nothing corruptible;
For That Son of Man has appeared,
And Has Seated Himself On The Throne Of His Glory,
And all evil shall pass away before His Face,
And the word of that Son of Man shall go forth

And be strong before the Lord of Spirits.
• 1 Enoch 69:29



And there was great joy amongst them,
And they blessed and glorified and extolled
Because the name of that Son of Man had been revealed unto them.

And He Sat On The Throne Of His Glory,
And The Sum of Judgement Was Given Unto The Son Of Man,
And He caused the sinners to pass away and be destroyed from off the face of the earth,
And those who have led the world astray.
• 1 Enoch 69:26-27



And there I saw One who had a head of days,
And His head was white like wool,
And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of a man,
And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels.
And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning That Son of Man, who He was, and whence He was, (and) why He went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me:
This is The Son Of Man who hath righteousness,
With whom dwelleth righteousness,
And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden,

Because the Lord of Spirits hath chosen Him,
And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before the Lord of Spirits in uprightness for ever.

And this Son of Man whom thou hast seen
Shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats,
[And the strong from their thrones]
And shall loosen the reins of the strong,
And break the teeth of the sinners.

And He shall put down the kings from their thrones and kingdoms]
Because they do not extol and praise Him,
Nor humbly acknowledge whence the kingdom was bestowed upon them.
And He shall put down the countenance of the strong,
And shall fill them with shame.

And darkness shall be their dwelling,
And worms shall be their bed,
And they shall have no hope of rising from their beds,
Because they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits.

And these are they who judge the stars of heaven,
[And raise their hands against the Most High],
And tread upon the earth and dwell upon it.
And all their deeds manifest unrighteousness,
And their power rests upon their riches,
And their faith is in the gods which they have made with their hands,
And they deny the name of the Lord of Spirits,

And they persecute the houses of His congregations,
And the faithful who hang upon the name of the Lord of Spirits.
• 1 Enoch 46


Books of Enoch

 

[Yekcidmij]

• 1 Enoch 48:2-6

• 1 Enoch 69:29

• 1 Enoch 69:26-27

• 1 Enoch 46

So you just went from talking about the authority of the book of Enoch based on it's being found at Qumran to quoting passages from Enoch that were not found at Qumran (ch's 37-71). Based on your premises, we can't conclude that these portions are scripture since they weren't found at Qumran nor quoted by Jude. But yet you quote them anyway. i think the problem is that you have a pre-commitment to the "book" of "Enoch" and try to justify it using any means whatsoever, no matter how inconsistent or incomplete those reasons are.

 

[Chinchilla]

I read the entire Book of Enoch a few times.

I can say the book exposes huge flaws in our religion today.... The book of Enoch affirms the authority of the Gospel of Christ over anything else written in the Bible.

It has the same theology as the Gospel of Christ in the same period as the Old Testament (Torah scriptures)!!! For example, there is no animal sacrifice in the Book of Enoch because animal life is highly respected! Those who shed the blood of animals for whatever reason were regarded as evil!

It's simply saying the Torah has absolutely no business being in the Bible because it's Orthodox Judaism (formerly Pharisee) contrasting the teachings of Christ in the Gospel while the Book of Enoch covered the same period as Genesis while still in agreement with Christ's gospels....

The Book of Enoch somehow exposes strong Pharisee influence in the Bible through the Old Testament..... Of course, Christ warned us against the deception of the Pharisees and here we are.... I guess that's why it didn't make it to canon.

....In the last days, God will send a strong delusion..... Of course, if it is strong, many, if not, most, will be deceived....

If shedding of blood of animals was regarded as evil then It would contradict most of the Bible and Christ as Atonement because he was Lamb of God. Maybe that's the reason that book was left out .

Genesis 3
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Where did God get these skins from ?

 

[timewerx]

If shedding of blood of animals was regarded as evil then It would contradict most of the Bible and Christ as Atonement because he was Lamb of God. Maybe that's the reason that book was left out .

Genesis 3
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Where did God get these skins from ?

I'm sorry about what I said there. It was quite some time ago.

I have since changed my belief about animal sacrifice.

What I believe now is that animal sacrifice as originally ordained is to come to a realization of the grave consequences of sin....Picking the best animal among your livestock to sacrifice is supposed to hurt and "wake" someone up to the reality of sin (the wages of sin is death, not only to the person but to every living thing around him or her as well). Animal sacrifice was good for that purpose. It is a way of repentance in those days.

Animal sacrifice only became useless when the Israelites started doing it out of convience, to cover up their sins, instead of realization of the truth. At such point, God no longer wanted their sacrifice - Isaiah 66:3

We no longer did it because Jesus took the place of the animal (It's another reason that the Israelites no longer took the ritual seriously and did it out of convenience according to Isaiah 66:3)

One thing I still believe is there is absolutely no more reason to do animal sacrifices again, today. Any such act, is likely just an act of vanity or just to feel good about being religious. Nothing about the ritual is supposed to make anyone feel good. It is supposed to be a time of mourning. As when Abraham is about sacrifice Isaac (until stopped by an Angel) and when Jesus gave up the Spirit on the cross.

 

[Chinchilla]

I'm sorry about what I said there. It was quite some time ago.

I have since changed my belief about animal sacrifice.

What I believe now is that animal sacrifice as originally ordained is to come to a realization of the grave consequences of sin....Picking the best animal among your livestock to sacrifice is supposed to hurt and "wake" someone up to the reality of sin (the wages of sin is death, not only to the person but to every living thing around him or her as well). Animal sacrifice was good for that purpose. It is a way of repentance in those days.

Animal sacrifice only became useless when the Israelites started doing it out of convience, to cover up their sins, instead of realization of the truth. At such point, God no longer wanted their sacrifice - Isaiah 66:3

We no longer did it because Jesus took the place of the animal (It's another reason that the Israelites no longer took the ritual seriously and did it out of convenience according to Isaiah 66:3)

One thing I still believe is there is absolutely no more reason to do animal sacrifices again, today. Any such act, is likely just an act of vanity or just to feel good about being religious. Nothing about the ritual is supposed to make anyone feel good. It is supposed to be a time of mourning. As when Abraham is about sacrifice Isaac (until stopped by an Angel) and when Jesus gave up the Spirit on the cross.

I agree , any sacrifice done today would be blasphemy , because they rejected The Sacrifice which was Christ , God for a reason destroyed temple in 70 A.D .

 

[Jipsah]

No, what you wrote isn't true at all. Enoch Absolutely Glorifies The Lord Jesus Christ 100%

Even the parts that are wholly false? Really? How much leaven does it take to leaven this lump?

There's a lot of stuff praising God in the Koran, too. In fact largish chunks of it are plagiarized directly from the Bible. You reckon it glorifies God to be praised within pages that reek with every kind of falsehood? When the Koran says that "God will wrong no one by even an atom's weight", does that fact that it states this drop of obvious truth somehow purify the river of deceit and mendacity of which it's part?

There are some nice words in "Enoch", too. But as in the Koran, they're water drawn from a poisoned well. The words themselves may be fine, but the intention of the thing as a whole is to deceive.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Even the parts that are wholly false? Really? How much leaven does it take to leaven this lump?

There's a lot of stuff praising God in the Koran, too. In fact largish chunks of it are plagiarized directly from the Bible. You reckon it glorifies God to be praised within pages that reek with every kind of falsehood? When the Koran says that "God will wrong no one by even an atom's weight", does that fact that it states this drop of obvious truth somehow purify the river of deceit and mendacity of which it's part?

There are some nice words in "Enoch", too. But as in the Koran, they're water drawn from a poisoned well. The words themselves may be fine, but the intention of the thing as a whole is to deceive.

Alright then show me the parts that are poison.

 

[Jipsah]

Alright then show me the parts that are poison.

Have done. Every word in "THE BOOK OF THE COURSES OF THE HEAVENLY LUMINARIES" is a lie.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Have done. Every word in "THE BOOK OF THE COURSES OF THE HEAVENLY LUMINARIES" is a lie.

Not a sweeping generalization. Show me the exact verses.

And don’t try to make this thread about geocentricism vs heliocentrism.