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The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    I thought I did answer the question. It's not for me to judge the faith of others (Lord have mercy), but it is hard to reconcile that glaring contradiction, and I do tend to find that it often results in a faith which is really no more than a kind of works theology motivated by the terror of eternal torment, which is to my mind not a foundation for real faith in Christ, because it short-changes him at a very elementary level. Jesus comes to save the world but only ends up saving a remnant. Is that your view? If so, how do you reconcile the inherent contradiction?
     
  2. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    It's the old mega-church narrow path.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Yet another oxymoron. - lol
     
  4. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Struggling to express the aporia of damnationism in a two word oxymoron. 'Burning love' isn't it. Hm, any ideas?
     
  5. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Question avoidance again? Interesting.
     
  6. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    There's no contradiction. The " whosever" isn't everyone.
    When you say things like "Jesus came to save the world" a little context is important.

    44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life.
     
  7. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Yes, so the context is that people are perishing, the world is passing away, condemned to death by love of sin. But God has a solution, which is Jesus Christ. God has promised that He will save all, that all will be blessed, that He desires all to be saved and that He will be all in all. Now, if all that needs to happen is that a person has to turn to Jesus and believe in order to be saved, how hard is it ultimately for God to make that happen? And the vehicle is tribulation, followed by Armageddon where the veils of deception are removed.

    Now I know Jerusalem is stubborn and would not, but God's power to overcome unbelief is limitless, as has been proven at Calvary and beyond. So again, God wants everyone saved, He sent Jesus for that very purpose, and He says ultimately it will happen.

    So what am I missing here? It feels to me like you're looking for an escape clause.
     
  8. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    No he doesn't.
     
  9. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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  10. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    None of those quotes implies salvation. Only submission.
    It simply means Jesus is eternal, nothing to do with who will be saved and who won't.
     
  11. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Well, the only condition to being saved is a true confession of faith. When God promises that every tongue will confess, do you believe it's like a Roman victory, where the vanquished are forced to 'say uncle'?

    Well eternity doesn't have a beginning and an end. Wouldn't it defeat the purpose if 'Salvation' ultimately stood alone in victory atop a pile of corpses?
     
  12. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't sound like a confession of Faith to me. They will have to confess to give God glory, but it doesn't say anything about their salvation.
    At the end of the book we have some people inside the city and outside are all the ones who didn't accept Christ.. but you want to add on a whole chapter that isn't there, where everyone gets irresistibly drawn in and we all sing kumbaya together I guess.
     
  13. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Not sure how God gets any more glory than Caesar if he doesn't truly convert His enemies. Isn't that the whole point of 'love they enemy', 'forgive them Father', etc? How are the core tenets of Christianity served by forced confessions and perfunctory genuflections?

    I don't need to add a chapter, just use basic reason. God is making all things new, the Pearly Gates stand open and the healing leaves and water of life awaits for those who can overcome. And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all (Rev 22:21). I don't really understand why you want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory here.
     
  14. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    I'm not snatching anything from anything. I'm just believing what I read in scripture instead of adding to it.
     
  15. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    You might want to note the recipient found it funny rather than accusatory.
     
  16. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    The thing that's stood out to me for a long time is, it says the gates of the city will never be closed.
     
  17. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    That's good to hear. I certainly wouldn't want any of us holding any grudges against each other. But it wasn't an accusation, it was an honest question because that's what it sounded like to me when you said, "You guys need to write your own Bible, and leave ours alone".

    But as far as that goes on a more humorous note:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Well it also talks about the nations, so I don't know that everyone outside is outside in the same sense.

    " The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

    That seems pretty exclusive. Seems to indicate there will be many who will never enter.
     
  19. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    Maybe the gates are open for us to go out and hand out invitations.
     
  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Not all Israel is Israel.
     
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