The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Clare73]

The concept of the Immortality of the Soul comes to us from pagan Greek philosophy, from the likes of Socrates and Plato, NOT FROM THE BIBLE.

Evidently, Jesus didn't get the memo, because he presents it in Luke 16:19-31, Mark 9:47-48.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Nice conflaguration. . .

It's not complicated. . .you're raised from the dead to go there, so you're alive when you go there.

See how easy that was?

It is your ignorance of Scripture that complicates it.
Uh. . .I'm thinkin' not "possibly" but absolutely, the worst thing is your faulty reading of Genesis. . .Adam lost spiritual life in the fall, the Hebrew reads: "Dying, (spiritually), you will die (physically)." (Genesis 2:17)
You're right about that! . . .since Adam lost the Spirit of eternal life the moment he rebelled, Adam damned himself. . .you can't hang it on God.

If I chose to ignore the warning sign and drive over the failed bridge, only to end up in the water, I can't hang it on the Highway Dept.

It's your own non-sense you are rejecting here. . .as it should be, at least you got that part right.

And it is your own non-sense that is the blasphemy!

1. What is a "conflaguration"?

2. Why do you ASSUME that I'm ignorant of Scripture? A different POV does not equate to ignorance.

3. I harked back to the CREATION of Adam, but you, typically, put a different spin on it. Don't think for a second I don't see your tricks.

4. Your Spirit of Debate may interfere with your ability to appreciate what others, not just me, say.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Evidently, Jesus didn't get the memo, because he presents it in Luke 16:19-31, Mark 9:47-48.

You need better proof texts. My POV on those Scriptures is very different, but I will not debate with you about it.

 

[Clare73]

You need better proof texts.

How about Matthew 18:34--"delivered to the tormentors (to the jailers to be tortured) until he pay his debt? This is what my heavenly Father will do to each one of you unless you forgive your brother from the heart."

My POV on those Scriptures is very different, but
I will not debate with you about it.

No need to, I understand that is your point of view.

 

[Ceallaigh]

How about Matthew 18:34--"delivered to the tormentors (to the jailers to be tortured) until he pay his debt? This is what my heavenly Father will do to each one of you unless you forgive your brother from the heart."

It's interesting to read various translations of that and see how all over the place they are with how it's worded. But notice also how it involves a finite period of time.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Nice conflaguration. . .

It's not complicated. . .you're raised from the dead to go there, so you're alive when you go there.

See how easy that was?

It is your ignorance of Scripture that complicates it.

Why are you so mean and rude to others?

 

[Clare73]

It's interesting to read various translations of that and see how all over the place they are with how it's worded. But notice also how it involves a finite period of time.

Yes, because the equation is between humans only.

When you introduce the divine into the equation with the human, it's no longer an equation, and there is nothing the human can do to equate the divine, and so the torture continues unending.

 

[Clare73]

Why are you so mean and rude to others?

Whom did you have in mind? fhansen? renniks? you?

Did you not find the post to which I was responding to be mean and rude to the word of God?

I guess I see some as "mean and rude" to the God-breathed Scriptures, I guess I see them as setting themselves above the God-breathed Scriptures, as judging God based on their personal predilections, as deciding for themselves what is appropriately just or loving of God, as making themselves an authority over God, as the clay telling the potter he is not allowed to do what he is doing, as trying to stand the divine order on its head. . .and I find it exceedingly grievous.

Also note that you would censor me for disagreeing with you, but you reserve the right to disagree with God in his word written.
So what's wrong with this picture?

 

[Clare73]

1. What is a "conflaguration"?

2. Why do you ASSUME that I'm ignorant of Scripture? A different POV does not equate to ignorance.

3. I harked back to the CREATION of Adam, but you, typically, put a different spin on it. Don't think for a second I don't see your tricks.

4. Your Spirit of Debate may interfere with your ability to appreciate what others, not just me, say.

Have you done any research to see why since the 400's, those words in the Greek are translated
"everlasting," "for ever and ever," "eternal"?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Whom did you have in mind?

I had you and your remarks in mind.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I guess I see some as "mean and rude" to the God-breathed Scriptures, I guess I see them as setting themselves above the God-breathed Scriptures, as judging God based on their personal predilections, as deciding for themselves what is appropriately just or loving of God, as making themselves an authority over God, as the clay telling the potter how to do his job, as trying to stand the divine order on its head. . .and I find it exceedingly grievous.

No. They just simply hold a different Koine Greek to English interpretation of scripture. Which is closer to Orthodox than yours. I know the one you hold to is supposed to be the only acceptable version, but that's not necessarily the case.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yes, because the equation is between humans only.

When you introduce the divine into the equation with the human, it's no longer an equation, and there is nothing the human can do to equate the divine, and so the torture continues unending.

Are you sure "torture" is the correct word?
Do you consider unending torture divine?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Have you done any research to see why since the 400's, those words in the Greek are translated
"everlasting," "for ever and ever," "eternal"?

Have you?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Even Bible Highlighter doesn't believe in it:

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'm not snatching anything from anything. I'm just believing what I read in scripture instead of adding to it.

Sure you're not subtracting from it? As in minimising, deducting, short-changing, reducing, curtailing and truncating it? I mean, if God hath said every knee shall bow, and His glory is served by His power to extract true confessions of faith, then to assert He doesn't really achieve either of those things is, well, a bit soft and limp, is it not? For none of His words shall fall to the earth, they are like strong men and arrows that won't return void. Believe it!

 

[Lazarus Short]

Have you done any research to see why since the 400's, those words in the Greek are translated
"everlasting," "for ever and ever," "eternal"?

Yes, I have, and I am in the camp which insists that "those words in the Greek" refer to a long but finite period of time. Since only God is everlasting, for ever and ever and eternal, anything lesser should be "of the age," or some similar term. However, those terms you quote are necessary to prop up the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul, which as I have said, comes from pagan Greek philosophy. Your Bible, if you care to check, states that the soul that sins will die. The common misconception is that your soul zips off to heaven or hell when you die. Your Bible, if you care to check, states that at the right time, God will resurrect the dead.

 

[Saint Steven]

The concept of the Immortality of the Soul comes to us from pagan Greek philosophy, from the likes of Socrates and Plato, NOT FROM THE BIBLE.

What do you make of this?


Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

 

[Saint Steven]

You have to actually read the stuff to understand it.

I deny it. The wages of sin, which we have all earned, is death, while eternal life is a gift of God. (I don't see it in Scripture anywhere, except in the serpent's "ye shall not surely die". Damnationism depends on it, else the damned aren't alive to be tormented.

The counterpoint is that "dead" in Scripture, means dead, bereft of life, deceased, ceased to be, etc., unless as we use it in a metaphorical sense, i.e., as in "he's dead to me", "he's dead, pull the sheet over his head", "I failed Math, I'm dead".

Perhaps we need to make a distinction between physical and spiritual, life and death.

- We can be physically alive or physically dead. (in this lifetime)
- We are born physically alive and spiritually dead.
- We become spiritually alive when we are born of the Spirit. (born again)
- Those who have not been born of the Spirit enter the afterlife as both physically and spiritually dead.
- Those who enter the afterlife being born of the Spirit are physically dead but spiritually alive.

As proponents of UR, we say that those who enter the afterlife as spiritually dead will have an opportunity to receive spiritual life. A very controversial position to take, of course. But since Christ paid the price for all, then all will be made alive. (spiritually)

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

- We can be physically alive or physically dead. (in this lifetime)
- We are born physically alive and spiritually dead.
- We become spiritually alive when we are born of the Spirit. (born again)
- Those who have not been born of the Spirit enter the afterlife as both physically and spiritually dead.
- Those who enter the afterlife being born of the Spirit are physically dead but spiritually alive.

The LORD brings death and gives life; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Sam 2:6)

When You send Your Spirit, they are created, and You renew the face of the earth. (Ps 104:30)

Well said Steve. Scripture is chock-full of these teachings. Ppl tend to confuse spiritual death with physical death, and it's not always easy to discern. But if we're guided by the spirit of grace, hope and victory, then surely we're on the right path.

 

[Clare73]

Have you?

No, I receive them from the translators of the time, in the 400's, who being closer to the gospel event were closer to the meaning of the Greek words.

It remains to ascertain what those same Greek words are used to mean in the Greek today.

It seems those words carry the same meaning today.