The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Saint Steven]

Concerning the Greek "aionios," not everyone is on the same page as to its meaning, or its proper English translation. YMMV.

I typed up the key points. If that helps.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

 

[Clare73]

Aha! So y'all have your own bible! That explains where a lot of these notions come from. But fair play, can you cite anything in your bible that states that all human beings live forever for good or ill? If not, I'm ready to declare damnationism sunk without a trace.

Declare away!

Reminder: Be sure to send God the memo.

 

[Ceallaigh]

You're still "young and tender". . .

You wish.

 

[Clare73]

You wish.

You mean you don't wish?

 

[Ceallaigh]

You mean you don't wish?

Wishing isn't scriptural.

 

[Clare73]

Wishing isn't scriptural.

You win!

Good night.

 

[Ceallaigh]

You win!

Seek to discuss, rather than to win.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Play at FULL VOLUME!

 

[fhansen]

The ultimate statement of biblical context. Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. What's yours?

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

Many may agree that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind, but then also claim that the vast majority of humanity will be consigned to eternal conscious torment, or incineration. (the genocide of humanity) Which is obviously not the redemption of humankind. Not even close.

Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

The Bible explains something that we should all begin to sense on our own, that there’s something wrong with humanity in a most basic way. And then it gives us the answer to the problem, that man must be reconciled and enter communion with God. Then justice, order, harmony-and happiness-would reign in creation.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Bible explains something that we should all begin to sense on our own, that there’s something wrong with humanity in a most basic way. And then it gives us the answer to the problem, that man must be reconciled and enter communion with God. Then justice, order, harmony-and happiness-would reign in creation.

Will we ever measure up? Not likely.

From my perspective, salvation/reconcilliation isn't something we do, it is something God did and is doing.

All too often we humans look at things to see what is wrong. (even with ourselves) Seldom do we look to see what is right. Why?

Most imagine that when God looks at us he is mostly disgusted by what is wrong with us. As if we were a worthless and wretched lot.

But Jesus informs us that God is our heavenly Father. I believe that Abba's lap is always open for us to sit. He longs for a relationship with us.

And like our own children, there we sit with a runny nose and full diaper. A needy lot.

Romans 8:15 NIV
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

 

[fhansen]

Will we ever measure up? Not likely.

From my perspective, salvation/reconcilliation isn't something we do, it is something God did and is doing.

All too often we humans look at things to see what is wrong. (even with ourselves) Seldom do we look to see what is right. Why?

Most imagine that when God looks at us he is mostly disgusted by what is wrong with us. As if we were a worthless and wretched lot.

But Jesus informs us that God is our heavenly Father. I believe that Abba's lap is always open for us to sit. He longs for a relationship with us.

And like our own children, there we sit with a runny nose and full diaper. A needy lot.

Romans 8:15 NIV
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

Hmm, God isn’t pleased with sin, which is a very ugly thing that caused Jesus to come and do what He did. But what He did proves that He loves us in spite of our sin. As creation, itself, becomes convicted of that sin, that ugliness, then it can turn to that love of His and begin to reflect it back itself. Yes, we first need to know that something’s wrong, to develop a hunger and thirst for something right in a relatively lost and godless world, apart from Him.

But, yes, we certainly don’t need to get stuck in some self-deprecating place, as some seem to enjoy, of maintaining that everything including ourselves is bad and dark. Jesus came to raise us up, not keep us down.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

So, if I don't believe your way I don't have real faith?

Not sure how you can believe Jesus is salvation incarnate and believe most ppl don't get saved. How does that work? It's a definitional and basic rational problem, a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron like military intelligence, no? Let alone a faith issue.

 

[Saint Steven]

But, yes, we certainly don’t need to get stuck in some self-deprecating place, as some seem to enjoy, of maintaining that everything including ourselves is bad and dark. Jesus came to raise us up, not keep us down.

Right. I believe he actually likes us.

Some readers bristle when I say that. But I want to emphasize that there is more to God's affections for us than the obligatory "love" that we model toward one another in the church, as if it is actual love.

We tolerate each other and call it love. But we hang out with those we actually like. See the difference? To like someone is actually a cut above love if you look at it that way.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hmm, God isn’t pleased with sin, which is a very ugly thing that caused Jesus to come and do what He did. But what He did proves that He loves us in spite of our sin. As creation, itself, becomes convicted of that sin, that ugliness, then it can turn to that love of His and begin to reflect it back itself. Yes, we first need to know that something’s wrong, to develop a hunger and thirst for something right in a relatively lost and godless world, apart from Him.

But where did sin come from? Did we humans invent it? Who put that tree in the middle of the garden where we couldn't avoid it? What was the idea there?

Surprisingly, humankind had to be tricked into the transgression. And did we really understand what the consequences would be? What did the threat of death mean before there was death on the planet?

I don't mean to be offensive with my questions, but these are the things we should be discussing. IMHO

 

[fhansen]

Right. I believe he actually likes us.

Some readers bristle when I say that. But I want to emphasize that there is more to God's affections for us than the obligatory "love" that we model toward one another in the church, as if it is actual love.

We tolerate each other and call it love. But we hang out with those we actually like. See the difference? To like someone is actually a cut above love if you look at it that way.

I guess, if you look at it that way. Unless they really do love...

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But first, you need to demonstrate that everyone, saint or sinner, lives forever one way or another, either in bliss or otherwise. Scripture explicitly states that all die. St. Paul says that the ages of sin is death., but that the gift of God is eternal life. Damnationist doctrine requires that everyone has eternal life, intrinsically. and that everyone will continue to live, either in Heaven or in hell. So where is this Scripture that declares that everyone lives forever?

I can't show you one verse that states point-blank 'Everyone will live forever', but it seems to me the most elementary deduction to make from (a) Everyone is condemned to death (b) Jesus comes to save everyone (c) God promises (swears an oath!) that everyone will be saved, because He loves the world with a passion that will never quit.

The assumption we need to make, the leap of faith, if you will, is that God's word is trustworthy and true, and Jesus' mission is a success. Now for me as a Christian, that's a given. Call it hope, faith, trust or conviction, I don't get how it can be such a stumbling block and rock of offence to so many - but the Bible explains the reasons for that.

So what am I missing? Some prophetic rhetoric about everlasting destruction and eternal torment to amplify up to an overriding theology? Salvation has the last word.

 

[fhansen]

But where did sin come from? Did we humans invent it? Who put that tree in the middle of the garden where we couldn't avoid it? What was the idea there?

Surprisingly, humankind had to be tricked into the transgression. And did we really understand what the consequences would be? What did the threat of death mean before there was death on the planet?

I don't mean to be offensive with my questions, but these are the things we should be discussing. IMHO

Either way, when I began to understand that there was something basically off the mark with this world, then the Christian message began to make sense.

 

[renniks]

Not sure how you can believe Jesus is salvation incarnate and believe most ppl don't get saved. How does that work? It's a definitional and basic rational problem, a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron like military intelligence, no? Let alone a faith issue.

How about answering the question. The vast majority of Christiandom doesn't buy into UR. Do they all have a fake faith?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Right. I believe he actually likes us.

BLASPHEMY!

 

[Saint Steven]

How about answering the question. The vast majority of Christiandom doesn't buy into UR. Do they all have a fake faith?

Before Christ, what did everyone "buy into"? The majority opinion isn't always the best indicator.