• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Featured The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +6,593
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The ultimate statement of biblical context. Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. What's yours?

    Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

    Many may agree that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind, but then also claim that the vast majority of humanity will be consigned to eternal conscious torment, or incineration. (the genocide of humanity) Which is obviously not the redemption of humankind. Not even close.

    Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?
    1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
    2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
    3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

    1 Timothy 2:1-6
    I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

    Romans 3:24 NIV
    and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +881
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    The Bible reveals God's plan to show forth his glory through the glory of his Son.

    The Bible reveals God's plan to show forth his mercy and his justice in the human race.

    The Bible reveals the destiny of those who believe in his Son and those who do not.

    Those who believe in his Son receive God's mercy. Those who do not receive his justice.

    Jesus presents the destiny of those who do not believe in him as unquenchable fire where their worm does not die.

    According to the Bible, that is God's plan for mankind.

    It's not for us to set the Scriptures against themselves in misunderstanding of them.

    Nor is it for us to judge the merits of God's plan--its worthiness of him, its fittingness, its compatibility, etc.--with our finite human notions of what God should do.

    Time to stop judging God and telling him what he has to do to be God.

    He's God, we're not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  3. Jake Arsenal

    Jake Arsenal Member

    153
    +77
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    If mankind is damned from Adam's sin, redemption is the salvation of the damned.

    Romans 8:19-23
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


    This doctrine describes the phenomenon modernly known as entropy.
     
  4. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,133
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Genocide? Incineration? IMO that is a terrible way to frame God's righteous judgment, as if He would somehow be at fault for having people "tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" or "thrown into the lake of fire".

    Thrown! Doesn't sound like a GOD someone wants to trifle with.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  5. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,770
    United States
    Christian
    Celibate
    Do you believe that humankind are entitled to inherit eternal life as a birthright?
    Do you find yourself experiencing feelings of sympathy for the devil?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  6. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,770
    United States
    Christian
    Celibate
    Death is a choice.
    Deuteronomy 30:
    15
    See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,
    16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep
    His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.
    17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship
    other gods and serve them,
    18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess.
    19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
    20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling
    to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land
    which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.
     
  7. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

    +963
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    It's a matter of which of the three Christian doctrines supported by scripture Saint Steven presented, best represent the nature of God.

    So why don't you tell us which one does and why.
     
  8. Jake Arsenal

    Jake Arsenal Member

    153
    +77
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The prince of the power of the air is the god of "do as thou wilt"(carnal mind-
    Romans 8:4-8, Ephesians 2:2)
    , but the Creator is the God to be feared(Matthew 10:28).

    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.(Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 9:10, Psalm 111:10)

    Deuteronomy 10:12
    And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
    Deuteronomy 8:6
    Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
    Deuteronomy 4:29
    But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
    Deuteronomy 6:5
    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
    Deuteronomy 30:2
    And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
    Deuteronomy 30:6
    And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
    Deuteronomy 30:10
    If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
    Matthew 22:37
    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    Mark 12:30
    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
    Luke 10:27
    And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
     
  9. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

    +3,330
    United States
    Oriental Orthodox
    Single
    Wow what a thread! Kind of a broad topic, and Universal Reconciliation is kind of worth its own thread.

    My theology is in the camp of some of the Eastern Orthodox, and among Protestants would probably be most friendly to Wesley and the Arminians. I take the Bible verses regarding the afterlife seriously, but rather than trying to narrow everything down into some kind of law or set of rules also point out the Mysterion aspect of the world to come that there is lots of stuff we don't know as far as how things work, how God will rule on things etc.





    I have a problem with UR (Universal Reconciliation )because if that was the will of God he could have communicated it better in the various parables, sermons etc. I have some Blog type entries that I will repost from Facebook, as well as reposted here on some threads.

    1) But in a nutshell if that really was the will of God that could have been communicated much better than it was in the Bible. Basically, I'm a smart guy, and educated guy, but everything we know about the reputation of Jesus from the Bible as a "teacher", him being the Second Person of the Trinity etc. he should be able to run circles around me.

    But even I can frame parables etc. that could communicate UCR type message. I for instance would tell the story of the Foolish Young virgins and the Feast, that they were only locked out of the feast for the first day or second day, but were able to buy oil from a shop keeper and later somewhere on the second day of the feast they bump into someone who lets them in.... so their sadness eventually is turned into joy.


    2) But there is just a lot of Biblical language that is against the basic idea. In our day, recycling to save the environment is a big deal. In the days of the Bible, when there was no mass manufacturing recycling and refurbishing broken, damaged and worn out products was even a bigger deal. If UR was the will of God it would have been easy to include such a parable or metaphor in the Bible. Comparing a sinner as something like a broken sandal or maybe a broken sword that needs to be re-forged in the furnace. But we see no such parable made by Jesus. The Bible throughout actually does the opposite using words like chafe, dross etc. to describe the wicked. These are things that were considered waste products and thrown out, burned etc.


    3) And then there is the problem of Satan.... IF UR is true will he be redeemed eventually? IF that is true why hasn't he already repented, he has had thousands of years to do so?

    This actually is a kind of a good "thought experiment" type question because it actually gets at some of the theoretical aspects of what people believe not just about Soteriology, but other basic assumptions the differences between the creation of man vs. the angels and what difference that potentially makes in what God intends for each.



    4) Problems with Freewill, Eternal Security etc.

    Well I did eventually find how to access my old write up and will end my Blog post quoting my last summary point.


    Point 4) on why I don't believe in Universal Reconciliation, 2 Potential Theological conundrums raised by it and a few side notes.
    1) As much as it can be construed as an Act of Mercy, UR can actually be seen as an act of coercion (God is leaning on the person to make him or her say "uncle", so he/she will eventually do what he wants rather than eventually accepting their chose after he has wooed them for years on the Earth).

    2) IF UR is true then that logically might mean that the eternal security of the the Church Triumphant might also be in jeopardy! (Now I don't believe that, but if UR is true on the hell side, then that might actually lead to that unfortunate drawback on the other.) Revelation 21:4 New International Version
    He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

    3) I am also going to add a bullet point for those UR folks that like quoting the Church Fathers etc. I love the Fathers but some of them were very into Platonism. Platonism is great for many things (understanding a God that transcends His creation, is outside time etc.), but just as many modern Protestants I believe are deeply affected by their cultural philosophical heritage that affects their interpretation of the Bible, we likewise need to be realize that the same also applies to some of the Church Fathers.... (Certain quotes tend to reflect a Platonic interpretation of the Bible etc,)

    4) Certain other Fathers, like Saint Isaac the Syrian, reflect a hope for the Salvation of humankind. This is very Christian attitude (of how we should orientate our lives) and something that we all should long for, pray for etc. It is not a dogmatic thing (something that is proclaimed that must happen as a official teaching), but a expression of love that we as Christians should have for the Lost.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  10. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,350
    United States
    Christian
    In Relationship
    God has a plan for the redemption of all through His Son Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Many hate Him and do not care about redemption. So what is God to do with those ? Could be choice number 1 or 2 or maybe there is another choice, eternal separation, just what they want. We do have a merciful God. Be blessed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  11. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +881
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Jesus teaches only one (Mark 9:48), the one I presented.
     
  12. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +881
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    This is so mindful of what the problem is.

    God has to agree with their reasoning before they will believe.

    Fortunately, you were able to do just that! . .make it reasonable to finite man.
    The smart money says they still won't accept it anyway.

    Because it's not about being unworthy of God, that's just the fig leaf they use to cover their unbelief.

    However, there will come a point where it can't possibly be reasoned satisfactorily to suit the fancies of finite man.
    There will come a point where a Biblical revelation is foolishness to them, where their faith can no longer rest on human wisdom, and then they get to decide whether to believe God or not.

    Looks like Jesus' words in Mark 9:48 may be that point for some.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  13. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +1,268
    Non-Denom
    Married
    First off: The Bible is not God’s “plan book”. The Bible is a tool to aid Christians in helping them to grow and to allow Deity to help others to grow through them.

    We learn what Deity is really like, how to become like Deity and how to help others become like Deity in that we all have Godly type Love.

    Yes! It is truly tragic Christ had to go to the cross to help willing individuals to humbly accept God’s undeserved charity/Love, but God and Jesus were willing to do just that.

    Yes! It is truly tragic satan has to be allowed to roam the earth tempting people to go ahead and do what they are wanting in their hearts to do, so they will spiral down to the point of truly seeing how bad of a situation they are in and make that change when they come to their senses.

    Yes! it is truly tragic there are tragedies, hurting people, sins, evil and death in this world to provide opportunities to experience, show, receive, provide and grow Godly type Love.

    Yes! It is truly tragic that some people will have to go to hell (with eventual annihilation), not to help them, but to help some willing individuals to realize how bad sin is/ how much they have been forgiven of and not put off their coming to Christ.
     
  14. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

    +963
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Even though you described what Jesus said in Mark 9:48 as being figurative.
     
  15. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

    +7,196
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    To most of my fellow constituents, my view is nothing more than a #2. (Here, I'll pass around the clothespins to keep everyone's noses nice and comfy ... ) :rolleyes:
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +881
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Yes. . .rightly divide the Word.

    Figurative in the sense of what it is that is as fire. . .could be fire, could be something worse, but whatever it is, what is not figurative is that is PAINFUL!

    And what is also not figurative is that the pain is unending.
     
  17. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

    +881
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    What say ye?!!!

    Sez who?
     
  18. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

    +7,196
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Sez who? Just a number of my fellow Christians who typically don't think that my "Annihilationist" perspective is either coherent or correct. :rolleyes:

    But I don't mind, really. I don't hold it against them.
     
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

    +3,249
    Australia
    SDA
    Married
    I think you forgot to add in red (by me here) # 3

    3) Ultimate Redemption (Universalism) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind by torturing the unrepentant wicked in the lake of fire until they repent from their sins and return to believe and follow God.

    This is the rest of the teaching of Universalism right? Not sure I see God's love and truth in that option.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  20. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

    399
    +149
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    There is more to Romans 3:
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

    30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.​

    @Saint Steven Am one day hoping to get to Romans and go verse by verse and add comments and reiterations of what is being said for context purposes.

    God's desires for all people to come to the knowledge of the truth, he is also willing that none shall perish, but the thing is the knowledge of truth is given now at the very present time.

    Have you ever talked to someone about Jesus but they do not know the biblical Jesus Christ? They say offer that hey Jesus Christ was a buddist monk, and that isn't right, yet that is what they believe.

    Some people reject the notion of desiring to have Jesus Christ or even accept him as they truth because they haven't had an experience or really know who he is.

    In this life it is very hard to go through even on partaking of the sufferings of Christ, even offering truth to someone only to possibly getting a look and a snicker or a smirk.

    It's important to teach Jesus Christ, but the thing is few people are really searching for knowing the truth about him.

    So it makes it tough and hard in this life, though we rejoice in our tribulations looking onward to the Hope that God will help us in what he needs to get done in our own lifetime.

    Apologize for the long letter, here but it been a rough tough day.

    Do believe that at the end all people will be resurrected, all given a spiritual body either condemned or full of life -> One going to the outside of the Kingdom -> The other into the kingdom of God.

    Not all will be saved unto the kingdom of God in this life because of their rejection. Do believe all sin has been paid for mankind -> Just a choice we all have to either make a choice to learn and grow in the knowledge of God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and accept the free gift of the holy spirit and love God sheds on our heart, -> or reject and make the choice not to.

    Thank you for listening.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
Loading...