The best speakers or authors for EO? Books or Podcasts?

[bmjackson]

So Father Matt, why do so many priests say that 'we are all sinners and will be in this life'? I have heard that from so many.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So Father Matt, why do so many priests say that 'we are all sinners and will be in this life'? I have heard that from so many.

because we are because we die, and that’s what even those who become sinless say about themselves. it also depends on how you are using the word “sin.” that word can have seeming contradictions depending on how it’s being used.

 

[bmjackson]

Yes I agree that the word sin depends on how you are using the word. That is why I said earlier 'like Adam before he fell'. A pure heart means that no evil thoughts can come to the mind, as sin comes from the heart. What is your definition regarding sinlessness? I don't see how a saint can say they sin. Being the worst of sinners in oneself without God's grace is not the same thing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't see how a saint can say they sin.

St Paul did on more than one occasion. plus, many Fathers and martyrs of the first centuries.

A pure heart means that no evil thoughts can come to the mind, as sin comes from the heart.

there’s more to it than just evil thoughts coming to mind.

What is your definition regarding sinlessness?

being by grace everything God is by nature.

 

[bmjackson]

St Paul did on more than one occasion. plus, many Fathers and martyrs of the first centuries.

I agree that in the state of sinlessness, one can fall back into the flesh as did Peter when Paul confronted him. But sin is not part of the sinless state - it is an aberration which needs to be repented of in order that Theosis can be restored. Adam did not sin without dire consequences. The Holy Spirit, as we read in the OT, cannot dwell where sin exists. A pure heart cannot bring forth filth like a pipe cannot bring forth pure and impure water.

Your last comment was illegible.

 

[bmjackson]

So Fr Matt, your last comments show what I am saying. You say that man can sin and still be in Theosis. This is the modern view that proves it is wrong by the state of the church and the lack of power of believers.

Must leave the conversation till tomorrow thanks for your contributions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I agree that in the state of sinlessness, one can fall back into the flesh as did Peter when Paul confronted him.

you said you can’t see how a saint can say that they sin. plenty do.

Your last comment was illegible.

it’s basically taken from St Athanasius, so take it up with him.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You say that man can sin and still be in Theosis.

I actually never said this.

This is the modern view that proves it is wrong by the state of the church and the lack of power of believers.

maybe, if it was actually my view or the Church’s view.

 

[~Anastasia~]

she’s got a lot of good stuff, and more degrees than a thermostat.

Haha just happened to see this. She is certainly well-educated. I think that’s why she is a favorite of mine. I think her knowledge of historical context adds tremendously to my understanding. I could never know those nuances on my own.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Haha just happened to see this. She is certainly well-educated. I think that’s why she is a favorite of mine. I think her knowledge of historical context adds tremendously to my understanding. I could never know those nuances on my own.

yeah, when you love the Bible like she does, you pick up on that stuff.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Must leave the conversation till tomorrow thanks for your contributions.

no problem, see you then

 

[bmjackson]

Many thanks to those who have recommended Dr Jeannie Constantinou, who I am listening to with great interest.

Fr Matt, here is something confirming what I have been saying about EO and Calvinism having the same idea regarding sanctification:

"The process of becoming is not so much attributable to human effort per se, but is a direct result of Jesus “transferring to Himself our erring generation.” And this is equally consistent with Western thinking, even though in term of deification language coming from the East. The point is that even though 2 Peter may be a questionable book, and the language itself used to support the idea of theosis may be somewhat confusing — “partaking of the divine nature” — it may be concluded that all Peter and those among the church fathers, and the Eastern Orthodox, are saying is essentially what Protestants and Western theologians have advocated: Deification or the full realization of what God intended man to be is a sanctifying process whose inception began in the person of Jesus Christ at the cross, is nurtured along by the Holy Spirit, and culminated in the person of God the Father." Theosis of the Early Church Fathers – Christian Apologetics Project

Me: You say that man can sin and still be in Theosis.

I actually never said this.

Then please give more clarity to what you do say as it seems to me to be the conclusion one must make. According to the EO that I have read and had discussions with, the state of Theosis does not exclude sin, whereas the early church teaching contradicts this.

Unfortunately, my books are packed for a house move so I will have to search for citations from them to prove what I am saying which is a bit time consuming during packing up my home but I will do my best. One thing I hope we can agree on, is that the true holy catholic and apostolic church is in a bad way and there are no wonder workers or men like they were in the past. Holy men do not sin, but it is possible for them to fall into sin at one point as demonstrated in scripture. That does not mean that they sinned on a regular basis.

 

[bmjackson]

you said you can’t see how a saint can say that they sin. plenty do. It’s basically taken from St Athanasius, so take it up with him.

There are saints and there are sinners. Scripture does not put them together. If a saint says that he is a sinner, then he is in error and being deceived by the enemy. A saint can sin yes, but until he is restored, as was Peter, he is a sinner during that time. Please back up your claims with quotations.

"no problem, see you then"

Thank you for your understanding.

 

[bmjackson]

I wonder if you are calling the whole process Theosis: Purgation; Illumination; Theosis as all belonging to the deification of man, rather than a stage we reach, which I think is suggested in the three steps which were taught.

One way to find clarity, is to look at Romans 7, and the three ways it has been interpreted by chistendom. The most used are the ones by Arminians and Determinists. We could look at this in depth if you are willing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Fr Matt, here is something confirming what I have been saying about EO and Calvinism having the same idea regarding sanctification:

"The process of becoming is not so much attributable to human effort per se, but is a direct result of Jesus “transferring to Himself our erring generation.” And this is equally consistent with Western thinking, even though in term of deification language coming from the East. The point is that even though 2 Peter may be a questionable book, and the language itself used to support the idea of theosis may be somewhat confusing — “partaking of the divine nature” — it may be concluded that all Peter and those among the church fathers, and the Eastern Orthodox, are saying is essentially what Protestants and Western theologians have advocated: Deification or the full realization of what God intended man to be is a sanctifying process whose inception began in the person of Jesus Christ at the cross, is nurtured along by the Holy Spirit, and culminated in the person of God the Father." Theosis of the Early Church Fathers – Christian Apologetics Project

I never heard of that guy, so I don’t know why that blog should be a resource.

Then please give more clarity to what you do say as it seems to me to be the conclusion one must make. According to the EO that I have read and had discussions with, the state of Theosis does not exclude sin, whereas the early church teaching contradicts this.

that’s because you’re not reading this with the mindset of the Church.

One thing I hope we can agree on, is that the true holy catholic and apostolic church is in a bad way and there are no wonder workers or men like they were in the past.

not true. I have met some of them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There are saints and there are sinners. Scripture does not put them together. If a saint says that he is a sinner, then he is in error and being deceived by the enemy. A saint can sin yes, but until he is restored, as was Peter, he is a sinner during that time. Please back up your claims with quotations.

St Paul calls himself the chief of sinners, and he doesn’t put that in the past tense. this is echoed in St John Chrysostom’s prayer before the Eucharist. St Ephraim the Syrian’s spiritual Psalter has it all over the place.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I wonder if you are calling the whole process Theosis: Purgation; Illumination; Theosis as all belonging to the deification of man, rather than a stage we reach, which I think is suggested in the three steps which were taught.

yes, theosis can have more than one meaning, especially when being used in English.

 

[bmjackson]

St Paul calls himself the chief of sinners, and he doesn’t put that in the past tense. this is echoed in St John Chrysostom’s prayer before the Eucharist. St Ephraim the Syrian’s spiritual Psalter has it all over the place.

One can call oneself chief of sinners meaning in themselves without the grace of God. Paul is meaning that way because he would be contradicting himself elsewhere where he claims to be without sin when taken in context and by the fact that he tells his followers to imitate him.

The Divine Liturgy is about coming to Christ in deep repentance for the gift of Theosis and just because the author writes in this way does not mean that he himself has not entered in. The writing is for the encouragement of others ie the majority as the road is narrow and few find it.

But Father Matt, we have already attempted to have this discussion in the past, and we reached a stalemate. i don't see any signs that this discussion will be different, so to avoid both of us wasting our time, I will bow out wishing you blessings in Christ.

 

[bmjackson]

Sorry I mean compile the Liturgy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

One can call oneself chief of sinners meaning in themselves without the grace of God. Paul is meaning that way because he would be contradicting himself elsewhere where he claims to be without sin when taken in context and by the fact that he tells his followers to imitate him.

you were the one who said a saint can’t say that they sin. St Paul does.

The Divine Liturgy is about coming to Christ in deep repentance for the gift of Theosis and just because the author writes in this way does not mean that he himself has not entered in. The writing is for the encouragement of others ie the majority as the road is narrow and few find it.

doesn’t matter. these are more examples of saints saying they sin.

unless you can actually show that they didn’t sincerely think of themselves as sinners.