The best speakers or authors for EO? Books or Podcasts?

[ArmyMatt]

But Father Matt, we have already attempted to have this discussion in the past, and we reached a stalemate. i don't see any signs that this discussion will be different, so to avoid both of us wasting our time, I will bow out wishing you blessings in Christ.

then why comment on this thread in the first place?

 

[abacabb3]

There seems to be a misunderstanding between full blown theosis, which some saints attain to, and degrees of grace but no theosis in this life, which other saints from all appearances (and many of us) experience.

 

[bmjackson]

then why comment on this thread in the first place?

I did not join the thread just to speak to you, and in the process, found a thread where we had been having the same discussion that l had forgot about.

Forgive me, but l don't wish to try to have a conversation with someone who is repeatedly insulting. You tell me l do not understand EO but give cryptic answers which fail to explain what on earth you are talking about.

 

[bmjackson]

There seems to be a misunderstanding between full blown theosis, which some saints attain to, and degrees of grace but no theosis in this life, which other saints from all appearances (and many of us) experience.

Yes, those who have not entered into the blessing deny it exists.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I did not join the thread just to speak to you, and in the process, found a thread where we had been having the same discussion that l had forgot about.

I didn’t say you were here to talk to me.

Forgive me, but l don't wish to try to have a conversation with someone who is repeatedly insulting. You tell me l do not understand EO but give cryptic answers which fail to explain what on earth you are talking about.

you’re forgiven, and forgive me as well. I am not trying to be insulting, but the East has a different mindset, which is why there is a disconnect. just reading Fr Romanides isn’t how to approach Fr Romanides or any of our theology.

 

[abacabb3]

Yes, those who have not entered into the blessing deny it exists.

Of course it exists, and you and I may theoretically attain to that spiritual state, but it is not a common state, we do not even ascribe it to all the saints in this life.

 

[bmjackson]

I didn’t say you were here to talk to me.



you’re forgiven, and forgive me as well. I am not trying to be insulting, but the East has a different mindset, which is why there is a disconnect. just reading Fr Romanides isn’t how to approach Fr Romanides or any of our theology.

Thank you father, but l have attended Liturgy, had meetings with a priest, and read intently for over three years. I knew it was important to have the EO mindset, and noticed how l was able to pick up more and more the faulty understanding of others who had just scratched the surface.

I came to it because l had studied entire sanctification in western terms for many years after entering it myself some thirty years ago and read Wesley intently who as you will know was a big fan of the fathers. Now, l consider that anyone who studies EO thoroughly and does not convert, has not understood it properly.

I was overjoyed to find Theosis taught, and that it is a much richer and fuller understanding than what passes for it in the west. Sadly, like all good things in these dark times, the true understanding of it has been lost in the main and a watered down version abounds which is expected in the days when Satan has been loosed. He hates this doctrine more than anything as a man who has a pure heart and is without sin, is unable to be deceived by him.

 

[bmjackson]

Of course it exists, and you and I may theoretically attain to that spiritual state, but it is not a common state, we do not even ascribe it to all the saints in this life.

Yes l agree but only call a person a saint if the have it. Others are carnal as Paul called them. It is straightforward, the spirit or the flesh.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I was overjoyed to find Theosis taught, and that it is a much richer and fuller understanding than what passes for it in the west. Sadly, like all good things in these dark times, the true understanding of it has been lost in the main and a watered down version abounds which is expected in the days when Satan has been loosed. He hates this doctrine more than anything as a man who has a pure heart and is without sin, is unable to be deceived by him.

and again, since we still have folks who have attained holiness to the point where satan won’t deceive them, I don’t get this assertion.

Thank you father, but l have attended Liturgy, had meetings with a priest, and read intently for over three years. I knew it was important to have the EO mindset, and noticed how l was able to pick up more and more the faulty understanding of others who had just scratched the surface.

Now, l consider that anyone who studies EO thoroughly and does not convert, has not understood it properly.

but these two statements indicate that you didn’t acquire the Orthodox mindset. you won’t get it that way.

 

[bmjackson]

Father, the way to attain the Orthodox mindset is through glorification. The other way is a longer process and is learning from others second hand and what the Holy Spirit teaches directly through listening to the Liturgy etc The fact that we are differing either means that I am wrong in my experience of glorification and am imagining it (despite having undergone significant psychological healing from an amount of lifelong abuse that no psychiatrist can deal with ) and finding my understanding of scripture the same as the patristic one, or you have not reached Illumination and do not have Holy Spirit revealed understanding of Theosis which is so common today.

I only got so far by having an open mind.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father, the way to attain the Orthodox mindset is through glorification. The other way is a longer process and is learning from others second hand and what the Holy Spirit teaches directly through listening to the Liturgy etc The fact that we are differing either means that I am wrong in my experience of glorification and am imagining it (despite having undergone significant psychological healing from an amount of lifelong abuse that no psychiatrist can deal with ) and finding my understanding of scripture the same as the patristic one, or you have not reached Illumination and do not have Holy Spirit revealed understanding of Theosis which is so common today.

I only got so far by having an open mind.

there is one critical thing you are missing, which is why your reading is NOT the biblical/patristic one. the fact is that you neglected something critical, something that Fr Romanides would say is critical.

if you aren’t a member of the Orthodox Church, theosis is impossible to attain.

 

[bmjackson]

Yes I know that is the teaching and probably has been true in the past. however we are in an unprecedented time for which God's economy allows, and if I have been obedient to the heavenly vision, but unable to join the church due to the priest rejecting my understanding of Theosis, which is more than likely the same as yours, then if God has accepted me into the church then man cannot deny it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes I know that is the teaching and probably has been true in the past. however we are in an unprecedented time for which God's economy allows, and if I have been obedient to the heavenly vision, but unable to join the church due to the priest rejecting my understanding of Theosis, which is more than likely the same as yours, then if God has accepted me into the church then man cannot deny it.

except God didn’t accept you into the Church, because you are not in the Church. which you are free to be.

 

[bmjackson]

No I am not free to be due to the priest. He did not like what I believed about Theosis being sinlessness even though he is a highly educated well known professor and broke contact. It is up to God who is in the church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No I am not free to be due to the priest. He did not like what I believed about Theosis being sinlessness even though he is a highly educated well known professor and broke contact. It is up to God who is in the church.

Orthodoxy doesn’t care about your (or my) opinion of things or how any individual reads things. yes, it is up to God in the end, but all you have done is asserted you’re right because you read Fr Romanides in a certain way.

 

[bmjackson]

I have read many of the early fathers whom Fr John agreed with. I only mentioned him because he is the nearest to modern times that I know taught the true glorification doctrine which the modern church has moved from. It is the opinion of other Orthodox not just me and also those who follow Fr john's teaching. Well father, it does not matter what you think. It is just your opinion which is not shared by all Orthodox. As I am not just arguing a doctrine but a life, in the end it is me who suffers if I am wrong and I would put my life on it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have read many of the early fathers whom Fr John agreed with. I only mentioned him because he is the nearest to modern times that I know taught the true glorification doctrine which the modern church has moved from. It is the opinion of other Orthodox not just me and also those who follow Fr john's teaching. Well father, it does not matter what you think. It is just your opinion which is not shared by all Orthodox. As I am not just arguing a doctrine but a life, in the end it is me who suffers if I am wrong and I would put my life on it.

well, what I am saying I got from two of my professors, both of whom studied under Fr John (one MA and one ThD), in addition reading his books in Seminary. so if I have to trust an interpretation, I am gonna go with the consistent teaching of two of his students.

 

[bmjackson]

Being a good teacher, I am sure that he would have allowed for two interpretations on his teaching. The Lord never forces truth on us if we are not ready.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Being a good teacher, I am sure that he would have allowed for two interpretations on his teaching. The Lord never forces truth on us if we are not ready.

that’s not how Orthodox dogmatics works. if you honestly think that, you need to read Fr John again.

 

[bmjackson]

You're right. In fact perhaps I do not agree fully with Fr John as he says that it is the state of Illumination that one stays in and Theosis is fleeting. I am in the FB group studying him. I will look at his teaching on this again. Perhaps he himself was only in Illumination