• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The best evidence against Evolution

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,225
52,658
Guam
✟5,151,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Excessive ingestion of salt will kill you just as excessive drinking of water.
I take ludicrous posts & points one grain of salt at a time; if it gets to the point where it becomes toxic to me, what does that say about the quality of you guys' posts?
 
Upvote 0

selfinflikted

Under Deck
Jul 13, 2006
11,441
786
46
✟39,014.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
I take ludicrous posts & points one grain of salt at a time; if it gets to the point where it becomes toxic to me, what does that say about the quality of you guys' posts?

Nothing in particular, other than maybe you should consider taking each post with a sip of water, instead. :p
 
Upvote 0

NailsII

Life-long student of biological science
Jul 25, 2007
1,690
48
UK
✟17,147.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Actually, it's quite the opposite- everything requires the invocation of The Deity or a deity. The world functions according to the laws of consciousness (not atoms). There are seasons of sowing and reaping, every act has purpose, every desire causes a change.
So how did the world function before there was a conciousness?
What happens to the seasons when there is no-one to tend to the farm?
If every act has a purpose, why do we have accidents?
If a dying man desires to live, why does he still die?

"Experts" of natural philosophy are not really experts of reality (which includes the natural) since said philosophy cannot take into account all the activities possible and underway in a universe under the rule of consciousness.
Maybe that is because you are 100% dead wrong, and I really sense a poe here cod that has to rank as one of the most outrageous posts I have ever read - even on the internet.
With or without technology there is still control under the laws of consciousness.
Does this law of conciousness still work on the moon?
What about Mars?
Pluto?

The scientific method is conpensatory and not a necessity.
It is only necessary if you want out find out imperical facts.

The more direct the pathway between consciousness and a material effect, the closer it is to being deemed a miracle.
Like winning the lottery?
Spontaneous cancer remission (in lab rats)?

There's the existence of atoms then there are the theories of atoms where everything is reducible to atoms, atomic laws explain the origin of everything, and atoms dictate everything by their own laws. The reason why you can't walk through walls is because you are a material body- a phenomenon underway because of Gods love, the effect of consciousness.
Whiskey
Tango
Foxtrot
Although he has been known to burn worshipers or "smite" them with the occasional melanoma, but only those, it seems who worship him too much -- take whatever theological message you will out of that.
lol

It is even more hypocritical to breath the air that God gives you to breath and then deny Him.
Err, OK.
Whatever you say.....

Atheists are critical of creationists for rejecting man and what man has to offer. Yet they reject the God that created them and what He has to offer. Not to mention the fact that atheists are even quicker to reject science when science supports the Bible. Amazing how people are always guilty of what they accuse others of.
Maybe because there is no evidence for a creation, or a deity.
You could quantify your claim by stating which few bits of the bible can be supported by science compared to the majority of it which cannot.
 
Upvote 0

CaliforniaSun

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
2,104
41
✟2,613.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I take ludicrous posts & points one grain of salt at a time; if it gets to the point where it becomes toxic to me, what does that say about the quality of you guys' posts?
Less than what it says about your level of understanding.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,225
52,658
Guam
✟5,151,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Less than what it says about your level of understanding.
Why do I spend more time correcting you guys' theology, than you guys spend correcting my science?

You can call yourself a geologist, or astronomer, or dentist, or whatever, and I'll take your word for it.

I call myself an Embedded Ager, and you guys disagree; but you can't tell me the specifics as to why I'm wrong, so I'm called a YEC.

If you want to discuss levels of understanding, I'll posit I know more science than you know theology -- just to see what you have to say.
 
Upvote 0

Mr Strawberry

Newbie
Jan 20, 2012
4,180
81
Great Britain
✟27,542.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Why do I spend more time correcting you guys' theology, than you guys spend correcting my science?

You can call yourself a geologist, or astronomer, or dentist, or whatever, and I'll take your word for it.

I call myself an Embedded Ager, and you guys disagree; but you can't tell me the specifics as to why I'm wrong, so I'm called a YEC.

If you want to discuss levels of understanding, I'll posit I know more science than you know theology -- just to see what you have to say.

As theology is the study of stuff people have made up, your argument is kind of irrelevant. I know quite a bit about Sherlock Holmes but I wouldn't say it's worth comparing with forensic science.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,225
52,658
Guam
✟5,151,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I know quite a bit about Sherlock Holmes but I wouldn't say it's worth comparing with forensic science.
Yet you could still correct me if I said something wrong about Sherlock Holmes, could you not?

So my point stands.
 
Upvote 0

Mr Strawberry

Newbie
Jan 20, 2012
4,180
81
Great Britain
✟27,542.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Yet you could still correct me if I said something wrong about Sherlock Holmes, could you not?

So my point stands.

You didn't have a point. Claiming that knowing more about something someone made up is in some way a justification for not knowing much about science just doesn't work.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,225
52,658
Guam
✟5,151,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You didn't have a point. Claiming that knowing more about something someone made up is in some way a justification for not knowing much about science just doesn't work.
Then telling me I'm wrong about 'something someone made up' [Embedded Age] because I'm 'something someone made up' [YEC] means you don't have a point, either.
 
Upvote 0

Mr Strawberry

Newbie
Jan 20, 2012
4,180
81
Great Britain
✟27,542.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Then telling me I'm wrong about 'something someone made up' [Embedded Age] because I'm 'something someone made up' [YEC] means you don't have a point, either.

Well, it's kind of amusing to point out that you can't even get the label for your own brand of wrongness correct.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,225
52,658
Guam
✟5,151,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Well, it's kind of amusing to point out that you can't even get the label for your own brand of wrongness correct.
And we're right back to here ...
Why do I spend more time correcting you guys' theology, than you guys spend correcting my science?

You can call yourself a geologist, or astronomer, or dentist, or whatever, and I'll take your word for it.

I call myself an Embedded Ager, and you guys disagree; but you can't tell me the specifics as to why I'm wrong, so I'm called a YEC.

If you want to discuss levels of understanding, I'll posit I know more science than you know theology -- just to see what you have to say.
... aren't we?

(IOW QED)
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,322
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,572.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Yet you could still correct me if I said something wrong about Sherlock Holmes, could you not?

Correct -- only because Sherlock Holmes, unlike your "theology," isn't something you can make up as you go along.
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,322
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,572.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Well, it's kind of amusing to point out that you can't even get the label for your own brand of wrongness correct.

In all fairness, he can label himself whatever he wants, and in his own mind, he'll always be correct.

It's just irksome when he "challenges" us to prove his own wrongness for him.
 
Upvote 0

mkatzwork

Newbie
May 4, 2012
465
10
✟15,669.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Incidentally - if you're an "embedded ager", or if you are an omphalist (a much catchier name, I think!) - irrespective, how exactly do you explain fossils in rocks that clearly date to older than the 6000 years? Are these fossils of real animals that lived - or are they just God messing with us?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,225
52,658
Guam
✟5,151,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Incidentally - if you're an "embedded ager", or if you are an omphalist (a much catchier name, I think!) - irrespective, how exactly do you explain fossils in rocks that clearly date to older than the 6000 years? Are these fossils of real animals that lived - or are they just God messing with us?
They are animals that lived <6000 years ago.

As I understand it -- and you can deny it all you want -- the fossils are dated by the rocks they are found in; and in some cases, the rocks are dated by the fossils found in them.

I could be wrong, but if I err on the side of science, I haven't lost anything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Astridhere
Upvote 0

thaumaturgy

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2006
7,541
882
✟12,333.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
As I understand it -- and you can deny it all you want -- the fossils are dated by the rocks they are found in; and in some cases, the rocks are dated by the fossils found in them.

I could be wrong, but if I err on the side of science, I haven't lost anything.

Rocks are dated by two methods:

Absolute ages
Relative ages

Absolute ages are those derived from physical measurement of time, such as by radioactive decay. We can date various sedimentary strata if they are near something like a volcanic ash flow layer. If the strata are below that layer we know they are likely older than that layer (Law of Superposition).

Relative ages are when we see which layer is older than another. Is it above or below a layer? Is there evidence that the layers have been overturned (yes geologist look for "raindrop impressions" in rocks and other ways to determine original orientation of the strata).

As to your point about the fossils here's how the details work:

Fossils are mapped and if we find a particular type of fossil shows up ONLY in certain "time frames" and never really outside of that time frame we may use it as what is called an index fossil. That will pin the rock layer to a timeframe that is defined by the existence of that Fossil. Now this doesn't give an ABSOLUTE AGE unless there is a way to measure an "Absolute Age" as mentione above (say through radiometric dating of layers nearby).

BUT once dated it may be possible, after years of establishing the limited "scope of time" that this fossil is found in to say "Ahh, this species of trilobite occured in the late Cambrian" so when we see that species of trilobite we may, indeed, estimate that the rock it is in is from the late Cambrian.

THIS is exactly the kind of stuff that makes up paleontology literature. If someone finds that an index fossil falls outside of that time frame they will revise the timeframe that the index fossil covers. Say someone finds a bunch of those trilobite species in the early Ordovician as well and they extensively test to make sure the fossils are not "reworked clasts" (recycled bits of rock that got into an Ordovian age rock formation...remember things like sedimentary rocks are made up of bits of often older rocks) then they will re-establish so that the index fossil now can be late C- early O . They will not "re-date the entire geologic column", they will not "rework all of evolution to make it fit", they will readjust what the existence of that index fossil means when people see it.

There is also something in geology called Faunal Succession in which we find that an animal's form changes over time. AND we have never found a "rabbit fossil" in the Precambrian. We see certain life forms in the rocks that never occur together and some that occur together.

If I find a "rabbit fossil" I will know that it is likely not the Precambrian. In fact I'll know it is millions of years later because of nearly 150 years of observational science repeatedly finding how life developed over time.

NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE "GOSPEL". They are based on observed science. Hundreds of years of people finding rocks and fossils and looking at them and recording which ones are together and which ones are not.

The thing I find fascinating is: geology at its heart is pretty "common sensical". It really doesn't take an Einstein to make it through the first couple years of geology classes, yet I find creationists almost never seem to have darkened the door of a geology class. I'm not saying geology is "simple", because it does require at least some effort to learn it, and it can become quite complex the deeper you go. But I'm always amazed at how little creationists know about geology, yet they talk so big about it.

I would love to know why Creationists seem scared to death of taking even a couple of intro geology classes. It is a mystery to me. Are they scared of the information? Are they scared that their "preconceived notions" of what geology actually entails will be challenged? Or is it safer to sit a distance away from the topic and throw rocks at it?

Just curious.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,225
52,658
Guam
✟5,151,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
They are animals that lived <6000 years ago.

As I understand it -- and you can deny it all you want -- the fossils are dated by the rocks they are found in; and in some cases, the rocks are dated by the fossils found in them.

I could be wrong, but if I err on the side of science, I haven't lost anything.

Rocks are dated by two methods:

Absolute ages
Relative ages

Absolute ages are those derived from physical measurement of time, such as by radioactive decay. We can date various sedimentary strata if they are near something like a volcanic ash flow layer. If the strata are below that layer we know they are likely older than that layer (Law of Superposition).

Relative ages are when we see which layer is older than another. Is it above or below a layer? Is there evidence that the layers have been overturned (yes geologist look for "raindrop impressions" in rocks and other ways to determine original orientation of the strata).

As to your point about the fossils here's how the details work:

Fossils are mapped and if we find a particular type of fossil shows up ONLY in certain "time frames" and never really outside of that time frame we may use it as what is called an index fossil. That will pin the rock layer to a timeframe that is defined by the existence of that Fossil. Now this doesn't give an ABSOLUTE AGE unless there is a way to measure an "Absolute Age" as mentione above (say through radiometric dating of layers nearby).

BUT once dated it may be possible, after years of establishing the limited "scope of time" that this fossil is found in to say "Ahh, this species of trilobite occured in the late Cambrian" so when we see that species of trilobite we may, indeed, estimate that the rock it is in is from the late Cambrian.

THIS is exactly the kind of stuff that makes up paleontology literature. If someone finds that an index fossil falls outside of that time frame they will revise the timeframe that the index fossil covers. Say someone finds a bunch of those trilobite species in the early Ordovician as well and they extensively test to make sure the fossils are not "reworked clasts" (recycled bits of rock that got into an Ordovian age rock formation...remember things like sedimentary rocks are made up of bits of often older rocks) then they will re-establish so that the index fossil now can be late C- early O . They will not "re-date the entire geologic column", they will not "rework all of evolution to make it fit", they will readjust what the existence of that index fossil means when people see it.

There is also something in geology called Faunal Succession in which we find that an animal's form changes over time. AND we have never found a "rabbit fossil" in the Precambrian. We see certain life forms in the rocks that never occur together and some that occur together.

If I find a "rabbit fossil" I will know that it is likely not the Precambrian. In fact I'll know it is millions of years later because of nearly 150 years of observational science repeatedly finding how life developed over time.

NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE "GOSPEL". They are based on observed science. Hundreds of years of people finding rocks and fossils and looking at them and recording which ones are together and which ones are not.

The thing I find fascinating is: geology at its heart is pretty "common sensical". It really doesn't take an Einstein to make it through the first couple years of geology classes, yet I find creationists almost never seem to have darkened the door of a geology class. I'm not saying geology is "simple", because it does require at least some effort to learn it, and it can become quite complex the deeper you go. But I'm always amazed at how little creationists know about geology, yet they talk so big about it.

I would love to know why Creationists seem scared to death of taking even a couple of intro geology classes. It is a mystery to me. Are they scared of the information? Are they scared that their "preconceived notions" of what geology actually entails will be challenged? Or is it safer to sit a distance away from the topic and throw rocks at it?

Just curious.
Mamma mia!

Would you cut through all this verbiage and just tell me if you agree with me or not?

(Not that I really care.)
 
Upvote 0