The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

[reddogs]

[/b][/color]Actually, He saves us in our sins. We don't need to get cleaned up to come to Christ. He takes us just as we are - dirty stinking sinners and gives us the gift of His righteousness.

So how do you read this verse:

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Then you have a treasure trove of verses that talk about the fruits of the Spirit and its work on man..

Ephesians 5


1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth )
10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.


Galatians 5

Life by the Spirit

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

He was talking of walking with God like Enoch where there was no reason he could not be taken up to heaven. If that was the case, then I would be sinless and I know I havent reached that point.........

You know practically nothing about Enoch, the Bible does not say that he was sinless nor does it even define what the writer means when he says and "he was not". So leave those assumptions behind.

Paul was not talking about Enoch either in Romans 7 or when Paul said he was the worst of sinners.

Now you know you have not reached the point of sinless perfection, does that mean you are not walking with God? How is it a person that you can grow in grace if you are not walking with God or if you have to have reached sinless perfection then why would one need to grow in grace.

 

[reddogs]

You know practically nothing about Enoch, the Bible does not say that he was sinless nor does it even define what the writer means when he says and "he was not". So leave those assumptions behind.

Paul was not talking about Enoch either in Romans 7 or when Paul said he was the worst of sinners.

Now you know you have not reached the point of sinless perfection, does that mean you are not walking with God? How is it a person that you can grow in grace if you are not walking with God or if you have to have reached sinless perfection then why would one need to grow in grace.

Walking with God like Enoch is a point that few can claim, and when you can talk with God and walk with him, face to face, it is no longer faith but fact that you are sinless.....

 

[freeindeed2]

Walking with God like Enoch is a point that few can claim, and when you can talk with God and walk with him, face to face, it is no longer faith but fact that you are sinless.....

Was Moses sinless when God passed by him on Mt. Sinai?

 

[StormyOne]

Supposedly you lust over women with your eyes. If you were to donote one to a woman who is totally blind, afterwards, she would lust after women with her new eye? I think not.

It's our mind, our thoughts that cause us to sin.

so then is it probable (not possible) to not sin mentally given you were born in sin? I don't think so... Likewise if we could stop sinning without the aid of the savior we wouldn't have needed one...

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Walking with God like Enoch is a point that few can claim, and when you can talk with God and walk with him, face to face, it is no longer faith but fact that you are sinless.....

Can you answer any questions Red. Now are you going to tell us that here on earth these sinless perfect people will be walking and talking face to face with God?

It is pretty obvious that if you had a consistent or even logical position you would not have to ignore answering questions. But you know your answers will prove your position to be nothing so you dance around and never answer.

I have to admit I am amazed to see so many of the TSDA's holding to this position. As even I did not think that this view was that prominent within Adventism. Just look at loveaboveall's answer to my question:

What does the doctrine offer chrisitans? Simple, it offers them the knowledge that it is not futile to work towards honoring God in everything we say and do.
So what does Christianity think that being a Christian is futile if they don't attain sinless perfection on earth. No of course not salvation is never futile and Christians honor God for the person He is and the salvation He promises.

It is possible through submission to God and the Spirit.
What is possible? The theory is possible so that gives the reason to teach this doctrine to people. Because it is a possibility one that appears far from actuality, come now that is not a reason to teach sinless perfection that is an excuse to teach it, that is circular reasoning.


What would be the point if you could not?
The point is that God can save you is not that a good enough point?

Why even try to keep something that is impossible to do?
Yet that is what the sinless perfectionist advocate. They can't do it they can't point to anyone who has done it and yet here it is declared to be a reason to teach something that is assumed to happen on earth.


At its very core it is the vindication of God and His character!
So now we are going to vindicate the almighty God? We are going to be the savior of our Savior? Would not it be vindication enough when he bestows eternal life upon His followers, would not that prove that He loves and can do what He promises?

God is just! Isn't that something every Chrisitian would like to know?
So God is not just yet, we have to wait to have a sinless perfect bunch of people on earth, then God will be just. If I can't say God is just now then why would I say it based upon the assumptions that there is going to be a sinless perfect group of people living on earth.

These are not answers because they are excuses to hold a doctrine that makes no sense.

 

[Eila]

Now we are back on track, now going back to 'growing in grace', how do you see the work of the Holy Spirit in cleansing our hearts and minds.....

I see it as the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[freeindeed2]

I have to admit I am amazed to see so many of the TSDA's holding to this position. As even I did not think that this view was that prominent within Adventism. Just look at loveaboveall's answer to my question:

It's NOT prominent within Adventism! Which is why I questioned it being allowed to be presented on the main forum in the first place. TSDA's are allowed to present obscure old SDA doctrine, but PSDA's are not allowed a similar luxury without getting reported. And that would be called a 'double standard'.

 

[Sophia7]

As I read the scriptures, it becomes very clear to me that the God head does not want us to sin. As a matter of fact, it seems to suggest that sinning is voluntary on our parts because the Holy Spirit has made a "way of escape' when we are tempted to sin.

I truly believe that sinless perfection IS possible IF we want it. The problem is now and always has been the human factor of "but "I" want! Paul told us that he had to die daily to the impulse to seek his own will. Thats where we need to get folks.

WE DON'T HAVE TO SIN! It's not a NECESSITY to do so. We sin because WE WANT TO!

As I said in another thread, the bible tells us that we can be 'partakers of the DIVINE nature"! It's a PROMISE from the Father. So is God not good to His word? Are His promises not reliable for us here and now?

Good questions. We want to sin, we can't make ourselves stop sinning, we're required to become perfectly sinless, God can help us stop sinning if we let Him, but no one has ever succeeded in letting Him help them attain perfection in this life. . . . What's wrong with this picture? Have God's promises failed, or have we misinterpreted His promises? Only Jesus is sinless. We have been credited with His righteousness. Our works can't add anything to that.

EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
​

 

[Sophia7]

It's NOT prominent within Adventism! Which is why I questioned in being allowed to be presented on the main forum in the first place. TSDA's are allowed to present obscure old SDA doctrine, but PSDA's are not allowed a similar luxury without getting reported. And that would be called a 'double standard'.

It sure is prominent on this forum, though, and it's prominent in some churches. Some of our members still had these ideas. Our churches were VERY traditional.

 

[Eila]

So how do you read this verse:

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Jesus is our sanctification. I believe we are fully sanctified when we accept Jesus as our Savior. It is maturing that happens after we are born again.

Then you have a treasure trove of verses that talk about the fruits of the Spirit and its work on man..

Ephesians 5


1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth )
10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.


Galatians 5

Life by the Spirit

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I have no problem with these verses. I'm not advocating sinning, but saying that we are saved while we are still sinners. "Just as I am...". A change in our actions happens after we are saved, not before.

 

[freeindeed2]

It sure is prominent on this forum, though, and it's prominent in some churches. Some of our members still had these ideas. Our churches were VERY traditional.

Yes, I did see it among certain 'types' of members, but they BY FAR were not what we would consider the 'prominent' sphere of the SDA church.

 

[Sophia7]

Yes, I did see it among certain 'types' of members, but they BY FAR were not what we would consider the 'prominent' sphere of the SDA church.

I agree. It's hanging on only in certain groups.

 

[Loveaboveall]

God and sin do not go hand in hand, so something is not right in your idea here...

When we CHOOSE to sin we are not walking with God at that point in time. When we repent of the sin and turn back to God with confession, then and only then are we walking with God again.

The story of Enoch is a story of a man who at every moment walkded with God and thus God deemed him worthy of translating him to heaven.

We are all at different walks in our life, we all at times turn from God and walk our own way, but what matters most is not how many times we turn from God but rather how many times we listen to the Spirit drawing us back to Him. God never leaves us we leave Him.

 

[freeindeed2]

We are all at different walks in our life, we all at times turn from God and walk our own way, but what matters most is not how many times we turn from God but rather how many times we listen to the Spirit drawing us back to Him. God never leaves us we leave Him.

So, during those supposed times does the Spirit leave his residence in us (even though he promised to NEVER leave) and do we get re-transformed BACK into what we were before we received the Spirit?

And then when the Spirit comes back does he re-re-transform us into a new creation again? Does this process repeat itself over and over and over based on the actions of man?

Interesting...

 

[StormyOne]

So, during those supposed times does the Spirit leave his residence in us (even though he promised to NEVER leave) and do we get re-transformed BACK into what we were before we received the Spirit?

And then when the Spirit comes back does he re-re-transform us into a new creation again? Does this process repeat itself over and over and over based on the actions of man?

Interesting...

that description does seem strange and is not reflective IMO of how God interacts with us.... I am wondering if people have kids or have forgotten parenting skills.... That description would be like parents only interacting with their kids when the kids are obedient and absent when the kids do not follow parental directives... David said it best, how can I get away from you Lord? If I take wings of a dove and fly to heaven you are there, if I make my bed in hell you are there...

The idea that choosing sin separates us from God until we repent and "come back to God" seems to be contrary to what the bible says God does...

 

[freeindeed2]

that description does seem strange and is not reflective IMO of how God interacts with us.... I am wondering if people have kids or have forgotten parenting skills.... That description would be like parents only interacting with their kids when the kids are obedient and absent when the kids do not follow parental directives... David said it best, how can I get away from you Lord? If I take wings of a dove and fly to heaven you are there, if I make my bed in hell you are there...

The idea that choosing sin separates us from God until we repent and "come back to God" seems to be contrary to what the bible says God does...

It absolutely is!

 

[Loveaboveall]

So, during those supposed times does the Spirit leave his residence in us (even though he promised to NEVER leave) and do we get re-transformed BACK into what we were before we received the Spirit?

And then when the Spirit comes back does he re-re-transform us into a new creation again? Does this process repeat itself over and over and over based on the actions of man?

Interesting...

Your logic makes no sense... When a born-again baptized christian falls back into his sin of... lets say drunkeness... he goes and gets drunk as a skunk drives home has a wreck and kills someone and himself... Is this person who willfully decided to sin against God still in right standing and will they have a place in heaven and the new earth? Is there still a sacrifice for a willfully commited sin (even though the writer of Hebrews says clearly their is not)?

The Spirit never leaves us, we stop listening to Him. The Spirit can only work in us as much as we are willing to let go... And yes, some recreating may have to be done once we start listening to Him again.

If you believe we no longer have a choice to turn away from God, what difference is your belief then the Calvinists and Baptisits and their false theology of predestination and OSAS?


Jesus was our example, He walked moment by moment with God listening to the Spirit. He commanded us to do the same by loving as He loved in John 13. If this is not possible then why would Jesus command this of us? I think it is utterly ridiculous that we are even having this discussion of whether God can work perfection through His creation when they allow Him to!

 

[Loveaboveall]

I agree. It's hanging on only in certain groups.

Apparently the "mainstream" "prominent sphere" of adventism no longer believes in the SOP?

Interesting... She saw it would happen, but apparently people don't believe her...

 

[freeindeed2]

Your logic makes no sense...

You're right! This teaching doesn't make sense!

When a born-again baptized christian

Be careful about the words you choose. You're headed back down the path of saying a born-again CHRISTIAN becomes UNBORN, or reborn again into sin. How many births are there in Christianity?

falls back into his sin of... lets say drunkeness...

You should at least pick one that is mentioned in the 'eternal' 10.

he goes and gets drunk as a skunk drives home has a wreck and kills someone and himself... Is this person who willfully decided to sin against God still in right standing and will they have a place in heaven and the new earth?

Is he a born again Christian? Does the Spirit (God himself) live IN him? If 'yes', then YES! Absolutely! To say otherwise would mean we are saved by what we do!

Is there still a sacrifice for a willfully commited sin (even though the writer of Hebrews says clearly their is not)?

All sin is willful.

The Spirit never leaves us, we stop listening to Him.

This isn't Scriptural. Are you making reference again to a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN?

The Spirit can only work in us as much as we are willing to let go...

Then you believe we are saved by our 'willingness to let go', or our own works, or actions.

And yes, some recreating may have to be done once we start listening to Him again.

This is not Scriptural. There is no re-re-creation.

If you believe we no longer have a choice to turn away from God, what difference is your belief then the Calvinists and Baptisits and their false theology of predestination and OSAS?

I am always astounded when people want to focus on their supposed ability to reject God. Please show me where this is a part of the Gospel!

Jesus was our example, He walked moment by moment with God listening to the Spirit. He commanded us to do the same by loving as He loved in John 13. If this is not possible then why would Jesus command this of us? I think it is utterly ridiculous that we are even having this discussion of whether God can work perfection through His creation when they allow Him to![/quote]