The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

[freeindeed2]

Apparently the "mainstream" "prominent sphere" of adventism no longer believes in the SOP?

The testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy! It's poured out on many and is evidenced by the MANY who give testimony of Jesus.

Interesting... She saw it would happen, but apparently people don't believe her...

The spirit of prophecy is not an individual. It is a gift of the Spirit (God), and it is the most prevalent gift.

 

[Sophia7]

Apparently the "mainstream" "prominent sphere" of adventism no longer believes in the SOP?

Interesting... She saw it would happen, but apparently people don't believe her...

I don't believe that EGW is the "Spirit of Prophecy."

Interesting. . . . She predicted that people would stop believing in her. It was happening even then, so it wouldn't have taken a prophet to predict that, but those statements sure are good for instilling fear in those who would think to question the TSDA views.

 

[OntheDL]

I agree. It's hanging on only in certain groups.

You are right. It's only hanging on in certain group: the remnant who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

 

[OntheDL]

It's interesting that most of you claim to have already been sanctified (made holy) and yet don't believe you can stop sinning.

What convenience!

 

[Loveaboveall]

Be careful about the words you choose. You're headed back down the path of saying a born-again CHRISTIAN becomes UNBORN, or reborn again into sin. How many births are there in Christianity?

Why don't you just come out of the "once saved always saved" closet and admit it openly?

You should at least pick one that is mentioned in the 'eternal' 10.

Is that sarcasm I detect? You said back several weeks ago that you were still a Seventh-Day Adventist, was that just so you could post when you were not allowed to or have you had a change of heart again? If you don't believe what is taught in the church then why do you claim it as your church?

Is he a born again Christian? Does the Spirit (God himself) live IN him? If 'yes', then YES! Absolutely! To say otherwise would mean we are saved by what we do!

So, If he is not saved then you can say "well he was never really born again", right? Talk about unscriptural! Let me give you a few texts to support the statement that you are speaking against what the bible teaches.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

What about Ananias and Sapphira?


Acts 5:5,9-10 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things...Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.

I suppose that either they were not baptized, born-again christians or they were but weren't right? They couldn't have been born-again and chose to turn back away from God could they? But they were part of the church, how do we harmonize all of this?

And then there is the story of Saul, not much getting around this one...

1 Samuel 16:13-14 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Will Saul be in heaven? The spirit of the Lord was with him at one time, but by the end it was not. Uh...was he really never "born-again"? Was the Spirit of the Lord never really with him? Or was it the choices Saul made that determined his fate?

All sin is willful.

Free, is it you that was previously a SDA pastor or am I thinking of someone else? Because, if it was you, you should know that this is unbiblical. I mean, it is tied in the sanctuary, the sanctuary message that an Adventist pastor should know well. Are they just not teaching this up at Andrews anymore?

Lev 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

If all sin is willful, what is a sin of ignorance? It explains more further in the chapter...

Lev 4:13-14 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which should not be done, and are guilty; When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

Lev 6:2-5 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour; Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found, Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, [and] give it unto him to whom it appertaineth, in the day of his trespass offering.

A willful/premeditated sin required a restoration plus a 5th and a trespass offering which was different than a sin offerring. This is reiterated in Numbers 5.

This isn't Scriptural. Are you making reference again to a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN?

Maybe you could provide scripture to back up your "isn't scriputral" statement...

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you think God ever quits working on our hearts? Even when we have commited the "unpardonable sin" Does He stop trying? Or do we stop listening. Is it God that has failed, or is it the choices we make?

Matt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Apparently there is something man can do that God will not forgive? What is it anyways?

Then you believe we are saved by our 'willingness to let go', or our own works, or actions.

It is not only what I believe but it is what the bible teaches!

Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Is denying ourselves a "work"? Not that I am aware of... Maybe you can explain to me how you rationalize this to be a "work of the law"? It really is an ABSENCE of work! Denying yourself is not working at all, rather allowing God to work through you!

This is not Scriptural. There is no re-re-creation.

Please provide scripture to back up such accusations! Where does it say it only occurs once?

I am always astounded when people want to focus on their supposed ability to reject God. Please show me where this is a part of the Gospel!

There were 2 thieves on either side of Jesus were there not? Did Jesus give them both assurance of salvation, or just one? Did the other thief make a choice or did Jesus choose which one He was going to save? How does this jive with 2 Peter 3:9?

Jesus was our example, He walked moment by moment with God listening to the Spirit. He commanded us to do the same by loving as He loved in John 13. If this is not possible then why would Jesus command this of us?

Is this unscriptural also?

 

[Loveaboveall]

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

What if I said that in the end times the devil would make an image to himself and cause any of God's people who did not worship it would be killed. Would that be a true statement?

Does it than make it true that one must be martyrd for obeying God to be saved? Of course not. This is talking about a specific people at the end of time, correct?

If this is true, than why do some continue to harp on the idea that the "perfection" issue is false because no one has ever attained this in the past or present (which cannot be proven biblically or otherwise). Why do some continue to say that this is a salvation by works issue? Are those who are martyrd for not worshipping the image saved because they did not worship the image? of course not, is it a true fact that this is what they will do? YES. The same goes for the 144,000. They will perfectly reflect the character of Christ, they will not sin for a period of time until Christ returns. Does this mean they are perfect? NO, ALL have sinned, they are still sinners, they still need JESUS! They are just a people who love God so much that they reflect His love perfectly, as He commanded us to do. Does that mean all of us have to be "perfect" to be saved? Of course not! This is talking about those at the end of time, some of us may be included in these people, but that does not mean all the generations before us are doomed because they were not "perfect". Is this clear?

 

[Eila]

And then there is the story of Saul, not much getting around this one...

1 Samuel 16:13-14 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Will Saul be in heaven? The spirit of the Lord was with him at one time, but by the end it was not. Uh...was he really never "born-again"?

Saul sure wasn't born again. Neither was David or Samuel, or Isaiah, or anyone before the cross. I'm curious as to what you think born again means and why you think those before the cross could be born again.

 

[freeindeed2]

It's interesting that most of you claim to have already been sanctified (made holy) and yet don't believe you can stop sinning.

What convenience!

19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. John 17

32"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. Acts 20

18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' Acts 26

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Maybe you missed it, but Christ has already sanctified ALL who believe in HIM for salvation.

 

[reddogs]

Good questions. We want to sin, we can't make ourselves stop sinning, we're required to become perfectly sinless, God can help us stop sinning if we let Him, but no one has ever succeeded in letting Him help them attain perfection in this life. . . . What's wrong with this picture? Have God's promises failed, or have we misinterpreted His promises? Only Jesus is sinless. We have been credited with His righteousness. Our works can't add anything to that.

EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

Sophia7,

Here is were I have to disagree with you Sophia7, for I have seen those in whom the work of the Holy Spirit has reached a point that they no longer want to sin, the desire to sin from the carnal nature is no longer there, and in the bible there are many examples of this of men and women that were righteous and sought and followed after God, not sin and evil.

I cannot judge if they are sinless as only God can look in the heart, but they dont have that hunger to sin that us sinners have, sin no longer has its hooks in them. So when I read that the Holy Spirit can cleanse our hearts and minds from sin, I believe, cause I have seen, and it is a awesome and powerful thing..........

 

[reddogs]

19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. John 17

32"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. Acts 20

18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' Acts 26

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Maybe you missed it, but Christ has already sanctified ALL who believe in HIM for salvation.

So why do you keep sinning and holding on to sin if you are sanctified?

 

[Jon0388g]

Adam and Eve were created perfect beings.

It was easier for them to do good, then to transgress. They chose to transgress.


We, through Adam, are sinful beings. It is easier to transgress, than to obey. Can we not choose to obey?


If it happens one way, can it not happen the other? Especially when God has revealed in Scripture that He will provide "a way of escape"?



Is the possibility of removing all wilful disobedience from our lives - partaking with divine nature,- possible or not possible? Yes or no?



Jon

 

[moicherie]

I will refer back to the OP as 'salvation by performance' is not what this thread is about.

"...building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.




'Salvation by faith in Christ' who brings us close and away from sin and then the Holy Spirit does its work is totally scripturally supported and what I believe...

So did Adam achieve his prefall state back again then?

 

[moicherie]

when washing clothes yes, when dealing with humans and their sin condition no....

Even when washing clothes the detergent does not pick up every single microscopic dirt particle so it is with us, Jesus has to step in, no matter how close we think we are getting to 'sinless perfection' the gap will always be there in this life.

 

[moicherie]

Many people may have mental ascent to Christ, but it is not with mental ascent that we come to become Christ-ones.

Romans 10" 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."



Mental ascent, if I'm understanding your use of that term, does nothing. Becoming born again is all about the heart.

We do not make decisions with our hearts we use our minds to do that. The use of the word heart is a metaphor all the hearts does is pump blood etc, all decisions come from whats between your ears.

 

[moicherie]

One question, as you stated you believe God perfects us... When does God do this if not on this earth?

God completes (perfects) us through Jesus Christ. He fills the gap, always. We have nothing to do with it or else we would not need a Saviour. Its as if sin has stunted our growth and made humanity no taller than 5 foot rather than 6 foot no matter what we do we will never be taller than 5 foot so Jesus steps in. He completes the gap, between the 5 foot and the 6 foot because of His love for us

(Hope my imagery makes sense)

 

[moicherie]

I wouldn't call mental ascent passive at all, but it is not believing with your heart. I do not agree that the heart and mind are the same thing in the Bible. If we acknowledge God with our mind and with our mind acknowledge that he exists is not the same as believing in your heart. I'm not saying that it is unwise to use your mind, but it not with our mind that we believe and are saved. I think many churches have mental ascent people in them who have never believed in their heart. Now you don't turn off your mind when you believe in your heart, but belief comes from the heart - not the mind. Your mind is still active in comprehending, but faith is of the heart not the mind. There are plenty of versus that list both mind and heart as separate things.

Its called imagery, metaphor, the writers of the bible were not biologists. That is how people spoke back than and we still do it today. We say I love with our my heart rather than I love you all my mind, the former sounds more romantic. But the brain makes all decision the heart does not.

 

[moicherie]

Someone who gets it!

Exactly God does not look at us and say Aha Mr/Ms Jones achieved sinless perfection today.....

 

[moicherie]

So how do you read this verse:

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Then you have a treasure trove of verses that talk about the fruits of the Spirit and its work on man..

Ephesians 5


1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth )
10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.


Galatians 5

Life by the Spirit

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

The bible says while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. He did not wait for our conversion 2000 years later....

 

[moicherie]

Apparently the "mainstream" "prominent sphere" of adventism no longer believes in the SOP?

Interesting... She saw it would happen, but apparently people don't believe her...

The SOP is not a human but the Holy Spirit (another Adventist myth)

 

[moicherie]

I don't believe that EGW is the "Spirit of Prophecy."

Interesting. . . . She predicted that people would stop believing in her. It was happening even then, so it wouldn't have taken a prophet to predict that, but those statements sure are good for instilling fear in those who would think to question the TSDA views.

Its called the EGW ace- used by Adventists who wish to end all debate. For people who believe in freedom of religion and expression for their views we sure have a Borg mentality. (some of us that is)