The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

[reddogs]

I want to prepare this discusson on the belief of "Sinless Perfection" with a description of what is meant by "Sinless Perfection" as many think it is a 'sinless' life which it is not as scripture makes clear.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So this is not a discussion on 'sinlessness' per se as one can sin yet still reach this state of 'perfection'. It is a state or level that is reached with divine help in which we no longer sin or desire to sin, so lets start with the definition of the building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.


Now keep in mind that as the Fundamental Beliefs have the following:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

...Ellen White's writings are not a external source to the argument, but well within the realm of it as those who accept its source as the Spirit of Prophecy cannot be denied its use in this discussion.

 

[reddogs]

Now there are many verses that speak of 'overcoming' so we must first look at them to see what is being overcome. If everyone can bring up the verses or quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy and lay them out so we can look at them. Here are a few:

1. Revelation 2:7
   He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
   Revelation 2:6-8 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
2. Revelation 2:11
   He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
   Revelation 2:10-12 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
3. Revelation 2:17
   He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
   Revelation 2:16-18 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
4. Revelation 2:26
   And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
   Revelation 2:25-27 (in Context) Revelation 2 (Whole Chapter)
5. Revelation 3:5
   He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
   Revelation 3:4-6 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)
6. Revelation 3:12
   Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
   Revelation 3:11-13 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)
7. Revelation 3:21
   To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
   Revelation 3:20-22 (in Context) Revelation 3 (Whole Chapter)
8. Revelation 21:7
   He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

[Loveaboveall]

I want to prepare this discusson on the belief of "Sinless Perfection" with a description of what is meant by "Sinless Perfection" as many think it is a 'sinless' life which it is not as scripture makes clear.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So this is not a discussion on 'sinlessness' per se as one can sin yet still reach this state of 'perfection'. It is a state or level that is reached with divine help in which we no longer sin or desire to sin, so lets start with the definition of the building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.


Now keep in mind that as the Fundamental Beliefs have the following:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

...Ellen White's writings are not a external source to the argument, but well within the realm of it as those who accept its source as the Spirit of Prophecy cannot be denied its use in this discussion.

Short and concise, I like it! Let me just ask... in reference to your 2nd post... How does one "overcome"? I would suggest it is love. God loved us so much and demonstrated His love in such a magnificent way that one cannot help but be drawn to Him and away from sin. Can one reach the point of not "desiring" sin? I believe so, because of God's love.

 

[reddogs]

Short and concise, I like it! Let me just ask... in reference to your 2nd post... How does one "overcome"? I would suggest it is love. God loved us so much and demonstrated His love in such a magnificent way that one cannot help but be drawn to Him and away from sin. Can one reach the point of not "desiring" sin? I believe so, because of God's love.

Yes, as this is the central theme upon which Gods relationship is base, love is put within our heart and mind so we may resonate with God and His purpose. Then the Holy Spirit comes and does its work and here is what I came across and put up on this:

"...Life by the Spirit

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Galations 5:16-26


1Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5: 1-21

So if we are led by the Spirit, we are not under the law, does that mean we can sin and go against it, I dont think thats what is meant. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not stop us from doing Gods will and showing love as that is the essence of the law, but it will puty into our hearts and minds the spirit of the law which is even better than the "letter of the law" that sinners use every means to 'get around'. Those who are transformed by the Holy Spirit follow Gods will so there is no need of the Law to show them sin.

It's possible as we see from story the rich young ruler to keep the "letter of the law" even without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in their lives, but those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in their lives will not only keep the "letter of the law" but the spirit of the law as well.

Here is a excellent explanation on the fruits of the Spirit in this excerpt from Richard W. O'Ffill:

"...Although the first work of the Gospel in the life is cleansing from sin, this work is only the preparation for the primary purpose, which is the infilling of the Holy Spirit in the life. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you [the new birth]...And I will put My Spirit within you..." (Ezekiel 36:26, 27).
The promise in these verses has two components. The first is to give us a new spirit; that is, our own spirit is renewed and quickened by the work of the Holy Spirit. When this has been done, the rest of the promise states, "I will put My Spirit within you" to dwell in that new spirit.

God created man's heart for His dwelling. Where God is to dwell, He must have a habitation. With Adam He had to create a body before He could breathe the spirit of life into him. In Israel the tabernacle and the Temple had to be built and completed before God could come down and take possession. Likewise, a new heart is given and a new spirit put within us as the indispensable condition of God's Own Spirit being given to dwell within us.

But God's original purpose for man was frustrated. The purpose of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, remember, was to re-create a dwelling place of which it could be said, "The kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21).

While Jesus walked this earth as a man, He was personally with His disciples. But it would not be until Pentecost that the promise of John 14:16, 17 would be fulfilled: "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

A wonderful and sobering thought is expressed in 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20: "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

While not smoking and drinking or going to movies and dancing, omitting mustard, vinegar, and black pepper in the diet, worshipping on the seventh day, and following a dress code are laudable, none of these things requires that a person be born again or, for that matter, even be a follower of Christ (the Hindus are traditionally vegans).

A true Christian is one whose heart is not only swept and clean but is filled in a wonderful and mysterious way with the Holy Spirit...."

"..As the Holy Spirit is welcomed and begins His work, the fruits of the spirit will begin to manifest itself in the transformation of the person, producing that which is in essence the very character of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

We are acquainted with the qualities of the fruit of the Spirit as shown in Galatians 5:22, 23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." This list, however, is not exhaustive. There are other qualities enumerated in 1 Timothy 6:11, Romans 5:3-5, 2 Timothy 3:10, and 2 Peter 1:5-7.

Jesus made it clear: Those who claim to be His followers but do not bear fruit will be plucked up and taken away (John 15:2). He also declared that, inasmuch as many will profess to be His followers (Matthew 7:21, 22), the deciding factor will not be what they profess to believe or even what they do, but rather the kind of people they are (Mathew 12:33).

....While people can keep the letter of the law without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in their lives, those who have the true Spirit in their hearts will not only keep the letter of the law but the spirit of the law as well...."

"Those who receive the seal of God will be those who have not only been swept and cleaned but who have been the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and as a result have manifested His fruit in their lives..."

"...when the Holy Spirit is in your life, it is God moved in with you.
A lot of problems disappear or become mute or irrelevant when that happens. You see, God is Holy, and when a Holy God moves in with you. His Holy presence will prepare, if you please, a sterile field in your life.

It is for this reason that Scripture says, "Old things are passed away; and behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). It also gives meaning to the words, "What fellowship has light with darkness" (2 Corinthians 6:14). When you and I have the Holy Spirit in our lives, we will hate the world, and as we sing, the things of earth grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace.

If only God's people in this generation would pray for the Holy Spirit and mean it...A person who seeks the Holy Spirit for gratification of His spiritual fantasies or for personal gain in power or popularity may very well receive a spirit and exhibit those characteristics, but they will not be from the Holy Spirit of God, but from another spirit. God will not be used by us. He is not God because of us. But we are created by Him for His pleasure and for His glory.

When the Holy Spirit dwells in its fullness in our hearts, then we will grow and experience what it means. "Forever, O God, thy word is settled in Heaven" (Psalms 119:89). And also, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; Yea, thy law is written in my heart" (Psalm 40:8).

Our worldliness or spiritual instability--the direct hit that many of us are taking from the flesh and the devil--are the direct result that we have not asked for, and thus have not received, the fullness of the Spirit.

Of one thing you may be sure, and that is, when you and I ask for and experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:

1. All known sin will go.
2. We will seek first the Kingdom of Heaven and His righteousness.
3. Sin will not have dominion over us.

We will no longer be under the law of sin and death. We will know what it means when it says, "There is now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"(Read Romans 6 and 8)...."



Here is Ellen White on the same topic:
"The mighty power of the Holy Spirit works an entire transformation in the character of the human agent, making him a new creature in Christ Jesus.... The peace that dwells in the soul is seen on the countenance. The words and actions express the love of the Saviour. There is no striving for the highest place. Self is renounced. The name of Jesus is written on all that is said and done."—Ellen G. White Comments, SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1117.

Just as leaven transforms a lump of dough into delicious bread, so the Holy Spirit transforms our lives into people who reflect Christ's character:

"As the leaven . . . works from within outward, so it is by the renewing of the heart that the grace of God works to transform the life. No mere external change is sufficient to bring us into harmony with God. There are many who try to reform by correcting this or that bad habit, and they hope in this way to become Christians, but they are beginning in the wrong place. Our first work is with the heart." - Christ's Object Lessons, p. 97...."

 

[reddogs]

How, when and where we reach the level of 'sinless perfection' is not as important as faith in Christ is, that is primary and paramount...

We must never take self-pride in our own ability to keep from sinning as all that is within us to overcome sin is from the divine.

God fills us with His Love and puts in us a desire to be free from sin..

Christ draws us close so we can repent, confess and through our faith rely on his righteousness against the wages of sin..

The Holy Spirit indwells so our hearts and minds are cleansed from sin...


As I was looking at the lesson for this week I was amazed that it spoke directly to this issue:

"...Memory Text: "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Corinthians 3:18, NKJV).

God is seeking to purify us, to refine us like gold, to transform us into His image. That's an astonishing goal, and it seems even more astonishing that a Christlike character is developed in us only as we pass through life's crucibles.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren"(Rom. 8:29, NKJV).

In the beginning, God made us in His image (Gen. 1:27), but that image has been corrupted by sin.
In what ways do we see this defacing of God's image in humanity?


It's obvious: We all have been corrupted by sin (Rom. 3:10-19). Yet, God's desire is to restore us to what we should have originally been. This is where our text today fits in. It reveals God's plan that for those who submit their lives to the Holy Spirit, they may be "conformed to the likeness of his Son" (Rom. 8:29, NIV).

But there's another dimension. "The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people."—Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages, p. 671.
How do you understand what Ellen White says to us in that quote? See also Job 1, Matt. 5:16, 1 Cor. 4:9, Eph. 3:10.


As Christians, we must never forget that we are in the midst of a cosmic drama. The great controversy between Christ and Satan is unfolding all around us. The battle takes many shapes and is manifested in many ways. And though much is hidden, we can understand that, as followers of Christ, we have a part to play in this drama, and we can bring honor to Christ through our lives....."

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I have noticed several people who seem to believe in sinless perfection also say that people would never know that they had acheived such a state. I believe Red and Jim presented that idea though I am not going to find the quotes.

The question then becomes why have a doctrine even a theoretical doctrine which can never be verified by anyone this side of heaven. If as is often said the closer you get to God the more sinful a person appears what benefit is there to the doctrine of sinless perfection. No one will know that he has achieved it and the closer they are to God the more certain they are that they have not arrived at such a position.

Which leaves only two reasons for the doctrine.

One is that it is used to discourage people in their Christian walk because they can't attain to a state which others say they must attain to have salvation. Not a good doctrine and certainly a poor reason for a doctrine.

Two, is the idea that if it occurs then it proves that our prophet who said it will occur is right. Yet as I have pointed out you or anyone else will never know if it is attained and as such it can never be used to prove the prophet correct. Once again a poor reason for a doctrine.

What does the doctrine of sinless perfection this side of the second coming offer any Christian?

 

[StormyOne]

I have noticed several people who seem to believe in sinless perfection also say that people would never know that they had acheived such a state. I believe Red and Jim presented that idea though I am not going to find the quotes.

The question then becomes why have a doctrine even a theoretical doctrine which can never be verified by anyone this side of heaven. If as is often said the closer you get to God the more sinful a person appears what benefit is there to the doctrine of sinless perfection. No one will know that he has achieved it and the closer they are to God the more certain they are that they have not arrived at such a position.

Which leaves only two reasons for the doctrine.

One is that it is used to discourage people in their Christian walk because they can't attain to a state which others say they must attain to have salvation. Not a good doctrine and certainly a poor reason for a doctrine.

Two, is the idea that if it occurs then it proves that our prophet who said it will occur is right. Yet as I have pointed out you or anyone else will never know if it is attained and as such it can never be used to prove the prophet correct. Once again a poor reason for a doctrine.

What does the doctrine of sinless perfection this side of the second coming offer any Christian?

it offers nothing and is a diversion.... if we are focused on Christ we are not worrying about our sinlessness... we are focused on Him..... however for those who wish to pontificate on the virtues of this particular belief it fulfills a need....

 

[reddogs]

I have noticed several people who seem to believe in sinless perfection also say that people would never know that they had acheived such a state. I believe Red and Jim presented that idea though I am not going to find the quotes.

The question then becomes why have a doctrine even a theoretical doctrine which can never be verified by anyone this side of heaven. If as is often said the closer you get to God the more sinful a person appears what benefit is there to the doctrine of sinless perfection. No one will know that he has achieved it and the closer they are to God the more certain they are that they have not arrived at such a position.

Which leaves only two reasons for the doctrine.

One is that it is used to discourage people in their Christian walk because they can't attain to a state which others say they must attain to have salvation. Not a good doctrine and certainly a poor reason for a doctrine.

Two, is the idea that if it occurs then it proves that our prophet who said it will occur is right. Yet as I have pointed out you or anyone else will never know if it is attained and as such it can never be used to prove the prophet correct. Once again a poor reason for a doctrine.

What does the doctrine of sinless perfection this side of the second coming offer any Christian?

RC,

Suppose a young man fell in love with the most beautiful, wonderful woman he could dream of, and their was one small problem. He had a past as a player, smooth talking womanizer, with many other conquests, and one night stands.

Well he asks his love to forgive him for his past and she does, and in return she asks him to love her with all his heart and mind and forgo his past. Do you think if he truly loves her that he will continue with his wandering ways or give it up all for her.....



(If we truly love God with all our strength and all our might, all else will fade and the Spirit will transform and put the law in our hearts and minds, and we are no longer under the dominion of sin or desire to sin.)

 

[Jimlarmore]

it offers nothing and is a diversion.... if we are focused on Christ we are not worrying about our sinlessness... we are focused on Him.....

This is sort of a dichotomy of terms in a way. If we as Christians are truely focused on our walk with the Lord then we will indeed be very conscious/worrying about our sins or lack thereof. We may not worry about His love and His grace covering our sins but we should be very much concerned about our own sin.

however for those who wish to pontificate on the virtues of this particular belief it fulfills a need....

I think it goes beyond a need to pontificate. Being right is fine but it's the relationship with Christ that saves. That relationship can suffer or be destroyed from wanton/willing acts of sin that are unconfessed or repented of. IOW, lasciviousness and lasciviousness can be the result of not worrying about sin in the life at all.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

RC,

Suppose a young man fell in love with the most beautiful, wonderful woman he could dream of, and their was one small problem. He had a past as a player, smooth talking womanizer, with many other conquests, and one night stands.

Well he asks his love to forgive him for his past and she does, and in return she asks him to love her with all his heart and mind and forgo his past. Do you think if he truly loves her that he will continue with his wandering ways or give it up all for her.....



(If we truly love God with all our strength and all our might, all else will fade and the Spirit will transform and put the law in our hearts and minds, and we are no longer under the dominion of sin or desire to sin.)

Well put Red, I heard Doug Batchelor last nite on 3abn give an example of keeping the commandments of God as it relates to Sabbath observance. He said what if a man who was arrested for murder came before the judge and told him. "Your honor I have kept all of the other laws perfectly except for this one murder, can't you overlook this one violation? Some say hey I keep nine of the ten what's the big deal. The comparison was striking and the truth very poignant. The wages of sin is death. The 4th commandment is part of the ten. To break one makes us guilty of them all. Keeping the commandments is all about love, love for our Creator.

Of course Jesus can and will forgive us if we confess and repent but that does not do away with the commandments. He paid for our sins on the cross, praise God for the grace we can experience.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

So Red is that your answer to my question:

What does the doctrine of sinless perfection this side of the second coming offer any Christian?

(If we truly love God with all our strength and all our might, all else will fade and the Spirit will transform and put the law in our hearts and minds, and we are no longer under the dominion of sin or desire to sin.)

Strangely enough I don't see people like Paul working under the assumption that they no longer sin. True they don't say they are under the "dominion of sin" because they now have a relationship with Christ and have become new. Does that mean they no longer sin? Of course not:

Romans 7:21 NIV So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

1 Timothy 1:16 NIV • Read this chapter
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

Galations 2:17 NIV "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Isn't it funny how contrary to the accusations on the other threads of the sinless perfection people that Paul specifically says that even though the Christian sins it does not mean that God promote sinning instead it points out the need for a savior.

Again when you have a doctrine that points to yourself as the sinless perfection doctrine does then it is not pointing to Christ. It is not a doctrine of any worth. It is why when asked a simple question a simple answer cannot be given.

If my salvation depends upon my total surrender of my will all the time and never sinning because I am never living by my will then I must say that I am not a Christian because I fail too often. Having read the words of many of the sinless perfection people here I can assure you that they fail very often. So is there no Christians in the world? Of course not, there is no perfect Christians in the world and those who say they are, are lying, and those who say they will become sinlessly perfect are living in a hope of something they could never even know in this life.

So the choice is delusions or reality, which probably also is a reason that Red gave the response he did as he as chosen delusion, thus making a real answer impossible.

 

[StormyOne]

This is sort of a dichotomy of terms in a way. If we as Christians are truely focused on our walk with the Lord then we will indeed be very conscious/worrying about our sins or lack thereof. We may not worry about His love and His grace covering our sins but we should be very much concerned about our own sin.



I think it goes beyond a need to pontificate. Being right is fine but it's the relationship with Christ that saves. That relationship can suffer or be destroyed from wanton/willing acts of sin that are unconfessed or repented of. IOW, lasciviousness and lasciviousness can be the result of not worrying about sin in the life at all.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

No we will not, because IF we are focused on Him then its not about us. If we are focused totally on him then we will remember that his love covers a multitude of our sins....

I see what you are saying but do not share your view,,,,

 

[reddogs]

So Red is that your answer to my question:
(If we truly love God with all our strength and all our might, all else will fade and the Spirit will transform and put the law in our hearts and minds, and we are no longer under the dominion of sin or desire to sin.)

Strangely enough I don't see people like Paul working under the assumption that they no longer sin. True they don't say they are under the "dominion of sin" because they now have a relationship with Christ and have become new. Does that mean they no longer sin? Of course not:
Galations 2:17 NIV "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Isn't it funny how contrary to the accusations on the other threads of the sinless perfection people that Paul specifically says that even though the Christian sins it does not mean that God promote sinning instead it points out the need for a savior.

Again when you have a doctrine that points to yourself as the sinless perfection doctrine does then it is not pointing to Christ. It is not a doctrine of any worth. It is why when asked a simple question a simple answer cannot be given.

If my salvation depends upon my total surrender of my will all the time and never sinning because I am never living by my will then I must say that I am not a Christian because I fail too often. Having read the words of many of the sinless perfection people here I can assure you that they fail very often. So is there no Christians in the world? Of course not, there is no perfect Christians in the world and those who say they are, are lying, and those who say they will become sinlessly perfect are living in a hope of something they could never even know in this life.

So the choice is delusions or reality, which probably also is a reason that Red gave the response he did as he as chosen delusion, thus making a real answer impossible.

But he understands that "Christ lives in me" has transformed him as sin cannot hold sway over a person in which "Christ lives in". Then you cannot disregard the work of the Holy Spirit so that the hearts and minds are cleansed of sin. My feeling is that "sinless perfection" is kind of like the belief in the Trinity, we know its there but cannot define the divine in its completeness.

The bottom line is if we love God and seek him through a closer walk with Christ, sin loses its hold on us and eternal life awaits us...

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

But he understands that "Christ lives in me" has transformed him as sin cannot hold sway over a person in which "Christ lives in". Then you cannot disregard the work of the Holy Spirit so that the hearts and minds are cleansed of sin. My feeling is that "sinless perfection" is kind of like the belief in the Trinity, we know its there but cannot define the divine in its completeness.

The bottom line is if we love God and seek him through a closer walk with Christ, sin loses its hold on us and eternal life awaits us...

Yes of course Paul understands that "Christ lives in me" yet that has nothing to do with sinless perfection. He knows that Christ is in him yet he knows that he still sins. You seem to hide behind terms that I don't think you can define. What does sin cannot hold sway over a person mean? If it means that the Christian has reached sinless perfection then we are forced to say there are none that are Christian and there are none that sin does not hold sway over.

Perhaps that is the problem you define sinless perfection as you do the trinity which is a traditional belief but lacks real Biblical definition., we have only the churches history of the concept. As we have seen here we have people who hold that Jesus is not Equal to God the Father yet they claim to hold to the trinity view. So to equate one nebulous term to another term that you hold as nebulous even though others find it very specific only causes greater confusion. (As sinless perfection is a pretty specific thing).

What is the point of the belief in sinless perfection then? Surely you don't believe that all those who have gone before us and died who still had not reached a point of sinless perfection cannot be given eternal life do you? That Paul who realized his own sinfulness cannot be granted the prize that he so desperately sought. No that is why Paul preached Christ and Him crucified because navel gazing at your own sinlessness can lead to nothing good. So why then teach a doctrine that only hurts Christians?

You have yet to answer the simple question
" What does the doctrine of sinless perfection this side of the second coming offer any Christian?"

 

[Jimlarmore]

No we will not, because IF we are focused on Him then its not about us. If we are focused totally on him then we will remember that his love covers a multitude of our sins....

I see what you are saying but do not share your view,,,,

That's fine I can respect a diversity of views as long as they stay within the truths found in the scriptures. I guess my take on this is that you can't experience salvation in it's truest sense without knowing what your status is with Christ relationship wise. That would include self assessement and self awareness. We can't be totally focused on Christ to the exclusion of being self aware or self assessing or knowing whether we are sinning or not. When we sin knowingly we know about it. To believe otherwise would be delusional in nature. When you stop worrying about sin then that can lead to lasciviousness.

Christ is our creator and gave us an intelligence and free will to choose life or death. We can focus on Him to the point that we allow Him to run our lives and sanctify our characters ( which eventually will lead to sinless perfection ). However, that will never go to the extent that allows us to sin with impunity without confession or repentence.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

You have yet to answer the simple question
" What does the doctrine of sinless perfection this side of the second coming offer any Christian?"

RC,
I think we have to go with what the Bible says about the sanctified life in that when we abide in Christ we get to take part in the divine nature of Christ which should be the essence of what Christianity is all about anyway. So to me what sinless perfection offers to any Christian this side of the second coming is a sanctified life that gets to take part in the divine nature. Not that we can accomplish this on our own but it is the ultimate goal of Christian living and the miraculous change that can occurr if we allow it too.

BTW, welcome back to the debate/discussion forum

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

Yes of course Paul understands that "Christ lives in me" yet that has nothing to do with sinless perfection. He knows that Christ is in him yet he knows that he still sins. You seem to hide behind terms that I don't think you can define. What does sin cannot hold sway over a person mean? If it means that the Christian has reached sinless perfection then we are forced to say there are none that are Christian and there are none that sin does not hold sway over.

Perhaps that is the problem you define sinless perfection as you do the trinity which is a traditional belief but lacks real Biblical definition., we have only the churches history of the concept. As we have seen here we have people who hold that Jesus is not Equal to God the Father yet they claim to hold to the trinity view. So to equate one nebulous term to another term that you hold as nebulous even though others find it very specific only causes greater confusion. (As sinless perfection is a pretty specific thing).

What is the point of the belief in sinless perfection then? Surely you don't believe that all those who have gone before us and died who still had not reached a point of sinless perfection cannot be given eternal life do you? That Paul who realized his own sinfulness cannot be granted the prize that he so desperately sought. No that is why Paul preached Christ and Him crucified because navel gazing at your own sinlessness can lead to nothing good. So why then teach a doctrine that only hurts Christians?

You have yet to answer the simple question
" What does the doctrine of sinless perfection this side of the second coming offer any Christian?"

RC,
I could go all 'theologian' and find all the verses and quotes from religious scholars, etc.. but I like to just say my understanding of it with my friends, and I think I can say that with you and Jim as I give my answer...

That is easy, sin has consequences, if you commit adultery, steal, lie, cheat, murder, addiction to drugs, etc.... it has consequences to the person committing it.

Christ wants us to let go of any harmful sin we hold on to, and let him come in and release us from its grip. The Holy Spirit then tranforms us and cleanses, as we begin a closer and intimate walk with Christ that we will ultimately continue in heaven.

 

[StormyOne]

That's fine I can respect a diversity of views as long as they stay within the truths found in the scriptures. I guess my take on this is that you can't experience salvation in it's truest sense without knowing what your status is with Christ relationship wise. That would include self assessement and self awareness. We can't be totally focused on Christ to the exclusion of being self aware or self assessing or knowing whether we are sinning or not. When we sin knowingly we know about it. To believe otherwise would be delusional in nature. When you stop worrying about sin then that can lead to lasciviousness.

Christ is our creator and gave us an intelligence and free will to choose life or death. We can focus on Him to the point that we allow Him to run our lives and sanctify our characters ( which eventually will lead to sinless perfection ). However, that will never go to the extent that allows us to sin with impunity without confession or repentence.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

it is telling that with all that I have said, you have the perception that I am saying people can sin to their hearts content.... I have not suggested that, nor is that what I believe.... however in the end it is God's call, and thankfully He is just....

 

[reddogs]

it is telling that with all that I have said, you have the perception that I am saying people can sin to their hearts content.... I have not suggested that, nor is that what I believe.... however in the end it is God's call, and thankfully He is just....

But Stormy you have to agree that many use any excuse to chase after sin, and this is why this belief is such an issue, as many want to remain in sin yet 'claim' "Christ lives in me' ....

 

[moicherie]

The sinless perfectionists contradict themselves, they argue one will never say one reaches sinless perfection cos the more one looks at Christ the more unworthy one will feel yet the say sinless perfection means being like Adam prefall. Adam did not feel unworthy prefall , why? because he was sinless and perfect....