The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

[StormyOne]

What does our body have to do with whether we sin or not?

1 John 2:16.... For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh [craving for sensual gratification] and the lust of the eyes [greedy longings of the mind] and the pride of life [assurance in one's own resources or in the stability of earthly things]--these do not come from the Father but are from the world [itself].

based on that text it seems the body and the mind have quite a bit to do with whether we sin or not.....

 

[OntheDL]

1 John 2:16.... For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh [craving for sensual gratification] and the lust of the eyes [greedy longings of the mind] and the pride of life [assurance in one's own resources or in the stability of earthly things]--these do not come from the Father but are from the world [itself].

based on that text it seems the body and the mind have quite a bit to do with whether we sin or not.....

Supposedly you lust over women with your eyes. If you were to donote one to a woman who is totally blind, afterwards, she would lust after women with her new eye? I think not.

It's our mind, our thoughts that cause us to sin.

 

[reddogs]

Look at the list of presuppositions are they Biblical assumptions

1. is fine most all Christians will agree
2. Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

Now think of all the Apostles and prophets who had the power of the divine yet did not have perfection. Yes it is all of them (I can't count Enoch and Elijah as there is nothing that says they had attained perfection it is just an assumption by certain people). Interestingly enough Adam in this said state of perfection fell so what does that tell us?

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

There is but one example of someone without a desire to sin and that Is Jesus, who is God. One of the major theologians and a spirit filled apostle Paul says that he does not even desire what he wants yet to be an overcomer it is declared above that a person will not have any desire for sin. Name one person with such God given ability. 2000 years and we can't find one, so what is this belief based upon?

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.

Bad news for all those people over the past 2000 years who are now being told (if they could hear) that they cannot go to heaven with any sin. As all so far still sin now to find out all those wonderful Christians as well as all those old Testament people cannot go to heaven because they did not have the required perfection. Of course Paul explained that we will be changed at the second coming so there is no need to worry about taking sin in our lives to heaven for those of us who reject these building block suppositions as what they are defective building blocks which lead to a defective doctrine.

All these presuppositions appear to be used when reading the Bible texts and they produce a very different gospel from that actually given in the Bible.

This is why I asked the simple question which seems to be unanswerable by the sinless perfection proponents. What does the doctrine offer any Christians? How many pages have gone on yet only DL even tried to answer and his answer is entirely free from any type of Biblical directives. It is why Red and Jim deflect to the idea of growing in grace which we have no problem with but that is a far cry from sinless perfectionism.

Good, we agree at least on 'growing in grace', now lets go to the next step. When we are 'growing in grace' we begin a closer walk with Christ and with the Holy Spirit's help are cleansed and transformed as we 'grow in grace', till like Enoch we can walk with God. Now at what point this happens we need to bring forth in our studies.

Now with Enoch, he did not have the chance that the thief at the cross did with a blink of a eye 'growing in grace' conversion. He went through a lifetime of 'growing in grace', but like the labourers who started in the morning, noon, or near quiting time, all receive the same 'payment' of eternal life.

 

[freeindeed2]

Good, we agree at least on 'growing in grace', now lets go to the next step. When we are 'growing in grace' we begin a closer walk with Christ and with the Holy Spirit's help are cleansed

This is one thing I don't understand. So many say things like this, like we're cleansing/perfecting/justifying/sanctifying/saving etc. ourselves and God only plays the role of being OUR 'helper'. I completely disagree. God is not our 'helper', he is our SAVIOR.

and transformed, till like Enoch we can walk with God.

We're walking with God now!

Now with Enoch, he did not have the chance that the thief at the cross did with a blink of a eye 'growing in grace' conversion. He went through a lifetime of 'growing in grace', but like the labourers who started in the morning, noon, or near quiting time, all receive the same 'payment' of eternal life.

Whatever. The Bible doesn't make the assumptions you have.

 

[reddogs]

This is one thing I don't understand. So many say things like this, like we're cleansing/perfecting/justifying/sanctifying/saving etc. ourselves and God only plays the role of being OUR 'helper'. I completely disagree. God is not our 'helper', he is our SAVIOR.


We're walking with God now!


Whatever. The Bible doesn't make the assumptions you have.

If you are 'walking with God now' like Enoch, how can you still sin and be with Him. That cannot be, nowhere in the scripture does it say you can hold onto to sin and be together with God.

 

[honorthesabbath]

As I read the scriptures, it becomes very clear to me that the God head does not want us to sin. As a matter of fact, it seems to suggest that sinning is voluntary on our parts because the Holy Spirit has made a "way of escape' when we are tempted to sin.

I truly believe that sinless perfection IS possible IF we want it. The problem is now and always has been the human factor of "but "I" want! Paul told us that he had to die daily to the impulse to seek his own will. Thats where we need to get folks.

WE DON'T HAVE TO SIN! It's not a NECESSITY to do so. We sin because WE WANT TO!

As I said in another thread, the bible tells us that we can be 'partakers of the DIVINE nature"! It's a PROMISE from the Father. So is God not good to His word? Are His promises not reliable for us here and now? Are we so blinded by self that we cannot see how sin wounds the Father and Jesus. He saves us FROM our sins, not IN our sins.

When we make excuses for sin, we a doing nothing else but parroting satanic accusations against the government of God.

Let me ask you all this. How much sinning does God accept from us? At what point is our sinning OK with Him? Do we bare no responsibility for our actions? When Jesus told Mary to 'go and SIN NO MORE' was He baiting her or was He serious?

Jon 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

And again....Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole:sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

So I would encourage those who oppose being sinless, to look closer at the reason this doctrine seems so vile to you. Grace is two fold. First it saves us from our PAST sins and then gives us the power to OVERCOME sin, in the flesh! 2Peter 6: 1-9

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, AND find grace to help in time of need.

One final comment. I thank God for mercy and grace because even though we fight the impulse to sin, there are times when we sin unknowingly, ie, 'times of ignorance'. And so I am very thankful that God's great heart of mercy and grace is there and ready to forgive us in these times.

Thank you, and sorry I got so long winded!

 

[Sophia7]

Good, we agree at least on 'growing in grace', now lets go to the next step. When we are 'growing in grace' we begin a closer walk with Christ and with the Holy Spirit's help are cleansed and transformed, till like Enoch we can walk with God.

Now with Enoch, he did not have the chance that the thief at the cross did with a blink of a eye 'growing in grace' conversion. He went through a lifetime of 'growing in grace', but like the labourers who started in the morning, noon, or near quiting time, all receive the same 'payment' of eternal life.

Do you think that Enoch could have had assurance of salvation before he finished "growing in grace" even though he wasn't about to die like the thief on the cross?

 

[freeindeed2]

If you are 'walking with God now', how can you still sin and be with Him. That cannot be,

Are you NOT walking with God? That's quite an admonition! That would mean you aren't a believer! How can you be a believer and NOT walk with God? That is an impossibility!

nowhere in the scripture does it say you can hold onto to sin and be together with God.

Please don't accuse me of 'holding onto sin'. Last time I checked God came while we were still sinners and offered himself. GOD LIVES IN all believers everywhere. Or is the Holy Spirit not God? He holds onto me!

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

If you are 'walking with God now', how can you still sin and be with Him. That cannot be, nowhere in the scripture does it say you can hold onto to sin and be together with God.

So then red, are you walking with God now? If you are, do you still sin, that is get angry, misread a person's comments or fail to love etc?

Your statement says that cannot be, yet Paul says that is experience, who should I believe?

 

[reddogs]

Are you NOT walking with God? That's quite an admonition! That would mean you aren't a believer! How can you be a believer and NOT walk with God? That is an impossibility!


Please don't accuse me of 'holding onto sin'. Last time I checked God came while we were still sinners and offered himself. GOD LIVES IN all believers everywhere. Or is the Holy Spirit not God? He holds onto me!

God and sin do not go hand in hand, so something is not right in your idea here...

 

[OntheDL]

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As I read the scriptures, it becomes very clear to me that the God head does not want us to sin. As a matter of fact, it seems to suggest that sinning is voluntary on our parts because the Holy Spirit has made a "way of escape' when we are tempted to sin.

I truly believe that sinless perfection IS possible IF we want it. The problem is now and always has been the human factor of "but "I" want! Paul told us that he had to die daily to the impulse to seek his own will. Thats where we need to get folks.

WE DON'T HAVE TO SIN! It's not a NECESSITY to do so. We sin because WE WANT TO!

As I said in another thread, the bible tells us that we can be 'partakers of the DIVINE nature"! It's a PROMISE from the Father. So is God not good to His word? Are His promises not reliable for us here and now? Are we so blinded by self that we cannot see how sin wounds the Father and Jesus. He saves us FROM our sins, not IN our sins.

When we make excuses for sin, we a doing nothing else but parroting satanic accusations against the government of God.

Let me ask you all this. How much sinning does God accept from us? At what point is our sinning OK with Him? Do we bare no responsibility for our actions? When Jesus told Mary to 'go and SIN NO MORE' was He baiting her or was He serious?

Jon 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

And again....Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole:sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

So I would encourage those who oppose being sinless, to look closer at the reason this doctrine seems so vile to you. Grace is two fold. First it saves us from our PAST sins and then gives us the power to OVERCOME sin, in the flesh! 2Peter 6: 1-9

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, AND find grace to help in time of need.

One final comment. I thank God for mercy and grace because even though we fight the impulse to sin, there are times when we sin unknowingly, ie, 'times of ignorance'. And so I am very thankful that God's great heart of mercy and grace is there and ready to forgive us in these times.

Thank you, and sorry I got so long winded!

Yes, I agree.

We naturally have sinful thoughts. But it does not mean when we are aware of it, we have to dwell in the thought and manifest it into actions.

It's a matter of choice, a matter of who you love more: Jesus or the worldly pleasures.

The bible clearly says there is no excuse to sin.

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

It's a much easier life to believe you can call yourself a christian and yet enjoy the former worldly pleasures. But this is the point of whole contension: if you don't make it in the end, you will no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Eila]

If you are 'walking with God now', how can you still sin and be with Him. That cannot be, nowhere in the scripture does it say you can hold onto to sin and be together with God.

1 Cor 1 "30But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin]. 31So then, as it is written, Let him who boasts and proudly rejoices and glories, boast and proudly rejoice and glory in the Lord."

Jesus is our righteousness. Jesus is our holiness. Jesus is our everything. It is His righteousness that we have. Our life is hidden in Him. Will we still sin? Yes. Does that change Jesus' righteousness? No. Should we sin? Of course not.

 

[OntheDL]

LOL, oops!

 

[Loveaboveall]

2. Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

Now think of all the Apostles and prophets who had the power of the divine yet did not have perfection. Yes it is all of them (I can't count Enoch and Elijah as there is nothing that says they had attained perfection it is just an assumption by certain people). Interestingly enough Adam in this said state of perfection fell so what does that tell us?

Who is to say that the disciples did not reach this state? Does the bible say they didn't? I suggest to you that all the disciples and the prophets very well could have... How do you give up your life and die a martyr, as most all did, willingly for God and yet still want to sin and dishonor the God you are dying for? those two just don't jive together.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

There is but one example of someone without a desire to sin and that Is Jesus, who is God. One of the major theologians and a spirit filled apostle Paul says that he does not even desire what he wants yet to be an overcomer it is declared above that a person will not have any desire for sin. Name one person with such God given ability. 2000 years and we can't find one, so what is this belief based upon?

Again, let me use the martyrs as an example... Did they not exhibit just what you are asking an example of? To rather die than sin and deny God? What more proof do you need than these great, Godly people who died for God's honor and glory?

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.

Bad news for all those people over the past 2000 years who are now being told (if they could hear) that they cannot go to heaven with any sin. As all so far still sin now to find out all those wonderful Christians as well as all those old Testament people cannot go to heaven because they did not have the required perfection. Of course Paul explained that we will be changed at the second coming so there is no need to worry about taking sin in our lives to heaven for those of us who reject these building block suppositions as what they are defective building blocks which lead to a defective doctrine.

What changes at the 2nd coming? our bodies or our character? Does this make a difference? I think it does... We are not changed into sinless beings at the second coming, Jesus judges our character BEFORE then. We are able to come to God as perfect and sinless because Jesus covers us with His robe of righteousness. Don't forget that ALL have sinned and all need Jesus' righteous covering. It matters not if one reaches a point of not sinning if Jesus does not cover the sins that have already been committed.

This discussion seems to not be focusing on what is most important... The 144,000 do not reach the point of reflecting Christ's character perfectly because they want to be saved, NO not at all. The reach it because they are filled with God's love and can't help it! They want to honor God because He loves them SO much.

All these presuppositions appear to be used when reading the Bible texts and they produce a very different gospel from that actually given in the Bible.

This is why I asked the simple question which seems to be unanswerable by the sinless perfection proponents. What does the doctrine offer any Christians? How many pages have gone on yet only DL even tried to answer and his answer is entirely free from any type of Biblical directives. It is why Red and Jim deflect to the idea of growing in grace which we have no problem with but that is a far cry from sinless perfectionism.

What does the doctrine offer chrisitans? Simple, it offers them the knowledge that it is not futile to work towards honoring God in everything we say and do. It is possible through submission to God and the Spirit. What would be the point if you could not? Why even try to keep something that is impossible to do?

At its very core it is the vindication of God and His character! God is just! Isn't that something every Chrisitian would like to know?

 

[reddogs]

So then red, are you walking with God now? If you are, do you still sin, that is get angry, misread a person's comments or fail to love etc?

Your statement says that cannot be, yet Paul says that is experience, who should I believe?

He was talking of walking with God like Enoch where there was no reason he could not be taken up to heaven. If that was the case, then I would be sinless and I know I havent reached that point.........

 

[freeindeed2]

As I read the scriptures, it becomes very clear to me that the God head does not want us to sin. As a matter of fact, it seems to suggest that sinning is voluntary on our parts because the Holy Spirit has made a "way of escape' when we are tempted to sin.

Glad to hear you admit that ALL sin is willful.

I truly believe that sinless perfection IS possible IF we want it.

In our corruptible bodies...hmmm

The problem is now and always has been the human factor of "but "I" want! Paul told us that he had to die daily to the impulse to seek his own will. Thats where we need to get folks.

And yet Paul was the 'chief of sinners'! Doing the things he didn't want to do and not doing the things he wanted to. Are you saying Paul was lost? He certainly admits to not 'achieving' the sinless perfection some in here tout as being 'possible'. Should I believe them, or Paul?

WE DON'T HAVE TO SIN! It's not a NECESSITY to do so. We sin because WE WANT TO!

We sin because we're sinners. We're not sinners because we sin. BIG difference!

As I said in another thread, the bible tells us that we can be 'partakers of the DIVINE nature"! It's a PROMISE from the Father.

Yes, through Christ alone! It is Christ who is sinless (there is NO SIN IN HIM) and perfect and righteous. We are credited with HIS righteousness. That ALONE gives us right standing with God the Father. It satisfies his anger that was against us. Jesus is our everything!

So is God not good to His word? Are His promises not reliable for us here and now? Are we so blinded by self that we cannot see how sin wounds the Father and Jesus. He saves us FROM our sins, not IN our sins.

He became sin FOR US so that we could be righteous before God. Jesus is the focus, not our corruptible human effort.

When we make excuses for sin,

There is no excuse for sin. Adam, through his so-called 'free will' infected all our natures with sin before we even thought our first thought. Sin is much deeper than human action. We were born with it as our nature. We could do NOTHING to eradicate it. It is Christ alone who gained victory over OUR sin, and it is IN Christ alone that we have victory because of what HE has done.

we a doing nothing else but parroting satanic accusations against the government of God.

Why such a fixation on Satan. Satan is not the nemesis of Christ. He was defeated LONG ago.

Let me ask you all this. How much sinning does God accept from us?

NONE. That's why Christ became sin FOR US.

At what point is our sinning OK with Him?

At NO POINT! That's why we were born dead (sinful nature). That's why Christ became sin FOR US and our salvation is COMPLETELY in Him!

Do we bare no responsibility for our actions?

We bare COMPLETE responsibility. But even before we were born we were already sinners, before we had any conscious actions.

When Jesus told Mary to 'go and SIN NO MORE' was He baiting her or was He serious?

He was completely serious. Mary knew that her only hope was Jesus Christ. What about us? Either Jesus is our Savior from start to finish through faith, or there is no hope.

Jon 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

And again....Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole:sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

So I would encourage those who oppose being sinless, to look closer at the reason this doctrine seems so vile to you.

The doctrine is simply wrong. It is a reliance on self instead of the Spirit. We are 'counted' as 'sinless', perfect ONLY because we are in Christ and there is NO SIN IN HIM.

Grace is two fold. First it saves us from our PAST sins and then gives us the power to OVERCOME sin, in the flesh! 2Peter 6: 1-9

It saves us from ALL our sin!

13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. Col 2

12 But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. Heb 10

18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. 1 Peter 3

One final comment. I thank God for mercy and grace because even though we fight the impulse to sin, there are times when we sin unknowingly, ie, 'times of ignorance'.

You already acknowledged that all sin is willful.

And so I am very thankful that God's great heart of mercy and grace is there and ready to forgive us in these times.

He has already forgiven those who believe in him, for ALL THEIR SIN! We have been credited with HIS righteousness. How could there be ANY accusation against us after being credited with HIS righteousness?

 

[Eila]

God and sin do not go hand in hand, so something is not right in your idea here...

Exactly - God and sin do not go together so He sent Jesus to reconcile us. The reconciliation is done. He was made sin for us so we could have His righteousness. When the Father looks at us He sees the perfection of Jesus. We died and our new life is hidden in Him.

 

[freeindeed2]

Exactly - God and sin do not go together so He sent Jesus to reconcile us. The reconciliation is done. He was made sin for us so we could have His righteousness. When the Father looks at us He sees the perfection of Jesus. We died and our new life is hidden in Him.

Someone who gets it!

 

[reddogs]

Exactly - God and sin do not go together so He sent Jesus to reconcile us. The reconciliation is done. He was made sin for us so we could have His righteousness. When the Father looks at us He sees the perfection of Jesus. We died and our new life is hidden in Him.

Now we are back on track, now going back to 'growing in grace', how do you see the work of the Holy Spirit in cleansing our hearts and minds.....

 

[Eila]

Are we so blinded by self that we cannot see how sin wounds the Father and Jesus. He saves us FROM our sins, not IN our sins.

Actually, He saves us in our sins. We don't need to get cleaned up to come to Christ. He takes us just as we are - dirty stinking sinners and gives us the gift of His righteousness.