The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

[reddogs]

Again, how are YOU able to discern who is a true believer and who is not? Are you able to read their hearts?

It begins to show in the fruit of the Spirit, they just cant keep it hidden under a bushel.......

1. Galatians 5:22
   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
   Galatians 5:21-23 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter)
2. Ephesians 5:9
   For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

 

[StormyOne]

How do you define cleansing? Do it mean it washes away dirty and impurity or not?

when washing clothes yes, when dealing with humans and their sin condition no....

 

[StormyOne]

I just want to say that I am 'pleasantly shocked' to see everyone discussing this issue in brotherly debate and discussion.......this is what we need in every thread...

uh huh.....

 

[freeindeed2]

It begins to show in the fruit of the Spirit, they just cant keep it hidden under a bushel.......

1. Galatians 5:22
   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
   Galatians 5:21-23 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter)
2. Ephesians 5:9
   For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

If I confess with my mouth that He is Lord, and believe in Him for salvation, who are you (or anyone) to say otherwise? Where are you commissioned to pass such judgments? Did God ask us to be fruit inspectors by looking at each other?

Those who cried 'Lord, Lord' at the end are those who focus on their 'works' instead of Christ. Or they try to combine their efforts and make God out to be a sort of 'helper' to man, rather than Sovereign God. They want a cooperative effort to count for salvation rather than it being by grace (alone) through faith (alone) in Christ (alone). They wish to play a part of saving themselves. They want their own supposed 'good works' and 'good fruit' to count. But God NEVER KNEW them.

In Chirst alone...

 

[Jimlarmore]

Interesting however that is not my view, nor my philosophy of truth. Truth to me is embodied in Christ, thus it is not a philosophy but the God who saves and perfects us..... the bible makes it clear, Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. 2 We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.

Paul says lets lay aside the sins that beset us and he tells us how that is done, by focusing on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith..... that much is clear to me....

If you really think about what a philosophy is it embodies a belief or mentally embracing something. You cannot focus on Christ without first having a mental ascent to Him and His truth for your salvation. "Philosophy" is just fancy terminology for belief or a belief system. Amen to the rest of you post, good narrative, content and truth.

God Bless you brother
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

[/list]If I confess with my mouth that He is Lord, and believe in Him for salvation, who are you (or anyone) to say otherwise? Where are you commissioned to pass such judgments? Did God ask us to be fruit inspectors by looking at each other?

Those who cried 'Lord, Lord' at the end are those who focus on their 'works' instead of Christ. Or they try to combine their efforts and make God out to be a sort of 'helper' to man, rather than Sovereign God. They want a cooperative effort to count for salvation rather than it being by grace (alone) through faith (alone) in Christ (alone). They wish to play a part of saving themselves. They want their own supposed 'good works' and 'good fruit' to count. But God NEVER KNEW them.

In Chirst alone...

'Iniquity' is what it refers to not works...

1. Malachi 2:6
   The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
   Malachi 2:5-7 (in Context) Malachi 2 (Whole Chapter)
2. Matthew 7:23
   And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
   Matthew 7:22-24 (in Context

 

[freeindeed2]

'Iniquity' is what it refers to not works...

1. Malachi 2:6
   The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
   Malachi 2:5-7 (in Context) Malachi 2 (Whole Chapter)
2. Matthew 7:23
   And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
   Matthew 7:22-24 (in Context

ye that work iniquity

And who was it that was WORKING iniquity?

 

[OntheDL]

Again, how are YOU able to discern who is a true believer and who is not? Are you able to read their hearts?

The true believers must manifest a change in their lives.

Be ye doer of the word, not the hearer only.

 

[JonMiller]

How does that have anything to do with becoming perfect?

JM

 

[Eila]

If you really think about what a philosophy is it embodies a belief or mentally embracing something. You cannot focus on Christ without first having a mental ascent to Him and His truth for your salvation. "Philosophy" is just fancy terminology for belief or a belief system. Amen to the rest of you post, good narrative, content and truth.

God Bless you brother
Jim Larmore

Many people may have mental ascent to Christ, but it is not with mental ascent that we come to become Christ-ones.

Romans 10" 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."



Mental ascent, if I'm understanding your use of that term, does nothing. Becoming born again is all about the heart.

 

[OntheDL]

Many people may have mental ascent to Christ, but it is not with mental ascent that we come to become Christ-ones.

Romans 10" 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."


Mental ascent, if I'm understanding your use of that term, does nothing. Becoming born again is all about the heart.

Every action is first conceived in the heart. If the heart is changed, the action will follow.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Quote:
So this is not a discussion on 'sinlessness' per se as one can sin yet still reach this state of 'perfection'. It is a state or level that is reached with divine help in which we no longer sin or desire to sin, so lets start with the definition of the building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.
http://foru.ms/t6296892-the-belief-o...erfection.html

http://foru.ms/t6296892-the-belief-of-sinless-perfection.html

Look at the list of presuppositions are they Biblical assumptions

1. is fine most all Christians will agree
2. Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

Now think of all the Apostles and prophets who had the power of the divine yet did not have perfection. Yes it is all of them (I can't count Enoch and Elijah as there is nothing that says they had attained perfection it is just an assumption by certain people). Interestingly enough Adam in this said state of perfection fell so what does that tell us?

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

There is but one example of someone without a desire to sin and that Is Jesus, who is God. One of the major theologians and a spirit filled apostle Paul says that he does not even desire what he wants yet to be an overcomer it is declared above that a person will not have any desire for sin. Name one person with such God given ability. 2000 years and we can't find one, so what is this belief based upon?

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.

Bad news for all those people over the past 2000 years who are now being told (if they could hear) that they cannot go to heaven with any sin. As all so far still sin now to find out all those wonderful Christians as well as all those old Testament people cannot go to heaven because they did not have the required perfection. Of course Paul explained that we will be changed at the second coming so there is no need to worry about taking sin in our lives to heaven for those of us who reject these building block suppositions as what they are defective building blocks which lead to a defective doctrine.

All these presuppositions appear to be used when reading the Bible texts and they produce a very different gospel from that actually given in the Bible.

This is why I asked the simple question which seems to be unanswerable by the sinless perfection proponents. What does the doctrine offer any Christians? How many pages have gone on yet only DL even tried to answer and his answer is entirely free from any type of Biblical directives. It is why Red and Jim deflect to the idea of growing in grace which we have no problem with but that is a far cry from sinless perfectionism.

 

[Eila]

Every action is first conceived in the heart. If the heart is changed, the action will follow.

Mental ascent is not the result of heart action though. I define mental ascent as focusing on facts and information and acknowledging their correctness.

A born again spirit will result in fruit.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Many people may have mental ascent to Christ, but it is not with mental ascent that we come to become Christ-ones.

Romans 10" 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."



Mental ascent, if I'm understanding your use of that term, does nothing. Becoming born again is all about the heart.

The thought processes are where we become Holy by the influence and work of the Holy Spirit, or the other way around we become vile by the exercise of our natures and satan's influence . The mental ascent I am speaking of is very involved and not just a passive thing at all. The creator made us to be thinkers and doers. Most actions are proceded by a thought or mental activity. When the Bible speaks of the heart it really is speaking of the mind and what it does. You cannot be born again which involves massive changes in the life without intimate involvement of the mind and associated thoughts.


God bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Loveaboveall]

my opinion, I expressed it, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it has never happened.... I did not accuse anyone of anything..... yet... neither have I assumed anything.... reread my comment.... I said many have used.... I did not say "many here have used." There is a significant difference.... if you feel you don't fit the category then I am not referring to you....

So, why do you bring it up in a discussion here if no one has expressed this and no one believes you are saved by what you do?

 

[Loveaboveall]

Interesting however that is not my view, nor my philosophy of truth. Truth to me is embodied in Christ, thus it is not a philosophy but the God who saves and perfects us..... the bible makes it clear, Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. 2 We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.

Paul says lets lay aside the sins that beset us and he tells us how that is done, by focusing on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith..... that much is clear to me....

One question, as you stated you believe God perfects us... When does God do this if not on this earth?

 

[Eila]

The thought processes are where we become Holy by the influence and work of the Holy Spirit, or the other way around we become vile by the exercise of our natures and satan's influence . The mental ascent I am speaking of is very involved and not just a passive thing at all. The creator made us to be thinkers and doers. Most actions are proceded by a thought or mental activity. When the Bible speaks of the heart it really is speaking of the mind and what it does. You cannot be born again which involves massive changes in the life without intimate involvement of the mind and associated thoughts.

I wouldn't call mental ascent passive at all, but it is not believing with your heart. I do not agree that the heart and mind are the same thing in the Bible. If we acknowledge God with our mind and with our mind acknowledge that he exists is not the same as believing in your heart. I'm not saying that it is unwise to use your mind, but it not with our mind that we believe and are saved. I think many churches have mental ascent people in them who have never believed in their heart. Now you don't turn off your mind when you believe in your heart, but belief comes from the heart - not the mind. Your mind is still active in comprehending, but faith is of the heart not the mind. There are plenty of versus that list both mind and heart as separate things.

 

[Loveaboveall]

This will happen ONLY when we are rid of these corruptible bodies and given incorruptible bodies.

What does our body have to do with whether we sin or not?

 

[StormyOne]

So, why do you bring it up in a discussion here if no one has expressed this and no one believes you are saved by what you do?

because when I read the comment it generated a thought, and I posted the thought that came to mind, just as your comments are a reaction to the opinion I expressed.... as this is a discussion, I contributed my opinion to that discussion...

 

[StormyOne]

One question, as you stated you believe God perfects us... When does God do this if not on this earth?

if he perfects us here and now (and perfecting is used in conjunction with faith and not sinlessness) then there would be no need to change anything in the moment, in the twinkling of an eye.... I suspect you are equating perfecting with sinlessness and I am not using the term in that manner....