The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

[moicherie]

Many like who?, just as one has to yet give an example of those who reach this sinless perfect stage or even if you are close to it yourself, where are these people who you say want to remain in sin yet say God lives in them, for no one on here has even suggested that.

 

[StormyOne]

But Stormy you have to agree that many use any excuse to chase after sin, and this is why this belief is such an issue, as many want to remain in sin yet 'claim' "Christ lives in me' ....

No Red I don't have to agree to anything...

Many have used this issue of sinless perfection to justify their warped view of salvation by performance.....

 

[OntheDL]

Originally Posted by RC_NewProtestants
You have yet to answer the simple question
" What does the doctrine of sinless perfection this side of the second coming offer any Christian?"

1. To show God's fair and His commandments are possible to be kept.

2. To replace Lucifer and the fallen angels (by the last generation, the 144000).

 

[freeindeed2]

Christ is our creator and gave us an intelligence and free will to choose life or death.

He gave perfect and sinless Adam and Eve so-called 'free will to choose life or death', and they chose death! Are you confident that sinful fallen natured man of his own so-called 'free will' is able to choose differently? Or is it really about Jesus being our Savior and going about his business of SAVING sinful fallen natured mankind?

 

[freeindeed2]

But Stormy you have to agree that many use any excuse to chase after sin, and this is why this belief is such an issue, as many want to remain in sin yet 'claim' "Christ lives in me' ....

I don't know ANYBODY that has the Spirit (God HIMSELF) living IN them that 'chases after sin'. Making this claim is accusing God of leading belilevers to sin! Maybe some of you know people who have God living IN them that do so, but I know of NO ONE!

 

[reddogs]

I don't know ANYBODY that has the Spirit (God HIMSELF) living IN them that 'chases after sin'. Making this claim is accusing God of leading belilevers to sin! Maybe some of you know people who have God living IN them that do so, but I know of NO ONE!

I bump into them everyday who 'claim' they follow Christ and tell others they love Christ and 'prophesied in thy name', who chase after and hold onto hate, evil, sexual sins, hypocrisy and iniquity.... with a 'death grip'....



Matthew 7:16-23
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[freeindeed2]

I bump into them everyday who 'claim' they follow Christ and tell others they love Christ and 'prophesied in thy name', who chase after and hold onto hate, evil, sexual sins, hypocrisy and iniquity.... with a 'death grip'....

And YOU are able to discern that what they say is only a false 'claim'? YOU know their hearts? YOU are in a position to make this judgment?


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=23&version=9&context=verse

Matthew 7:16-23
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Whose fruit is it again? I know the good fruit that is produced BY THE SPIRIT. What is the 'good fruit' man produces?

And with regards to the 'will of my Father':

40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." John 6

Quite simple, really. And, as ALWAYS, it's about Jesus Christ (ALWAYS).

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes. These are the ones who want their own efforts to count for something. The ones who believe they play a part (at least) in saving themselves.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

'These sayings of mine' = Jesus' teachings

This is not a reference to the old covenant/10 commandments. Matt 5-7 lay out the very teachings Jesus was referring to. It was his teachings given from a different mountain.

Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

And you are the one who is able to judge who is and who isn't righteous?

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

And the 'good nature' of humanity does this with God as his 'helper'?

 

[Loveaboveall]

No Red I don't have to agree to anything...

Many have used this issue of sinless perfection to justify their warped view of salvation by performance.....

I haven't seen one person even hint at "salvation by performance"! Where do you get that idea from, because no one here has said anything close to that?

Just because there WILL be a people who at the end of time will perfectly reflect the character of Christ does not mean that all who don't won't be saved. And it doesn't mean that they will be saved BECAUSE of they will keep the commandments of God.

Could you please stop with your false acussations and assumptions?

 

[StormyOne]

I haven't seen one person even hint at "salvation by performance"! Where do you get that idea from, because no one here has said anything close to that?

Just because there WILL be a people who at the end of time will perfectly reflect the character of Christ does not mean that all who don't won't be saved. And it doesn't mean that they will be saved BECAUSE of they will keep the commandments of God.

Could you please stop with your false acussations and assumptions?

my opinion, I expressed it, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it has never happened.... I did not accuse anyone of anything..... yet... neither have I assumed anything.... reread my comment.... I said many have used.... I did not say "many here have used." There is a significant difference.... if you feel you don't fit the category then I am not referring to you....

 

[Jimlarmore]

it is telling that with all that I have said, you have the perception that I am saying people can sin to their hearts content.... I have not suggested that, nor is that what I believe.... however in the end it is God's call, and thankfully He is just....

Nor have I accuse you of that brother. I am not just speaking to you when I post but to those who lurk and are sitting in the valley of decision as to what is truth or not. I used to be baptist where the belief of once saved always saved is very strong ( especially southern baptist) . In this belief they think you can sin with impunity after being saved and still remain saved no matter what you do.

The deception of OSAS starts out with the exact same philosophy of truth you have on grace and then goes on to an extreme level that leads one right back into sin again. Actually if you think about it's a masterful deception that satan has propagated here. One that is not only full of truth but tends to play right into the human nature we all have.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

I will refer back to the OP as 'salvation by performance' is not what this thread is about.

"...building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.




'Salvation by faith in Christ' who brings us close and away from sin and then the Holy Spirit does its work is totally scripturally supported and what I believe...

 

[StormyOne]

Nor have I accuse you of that brother. I am not just speaking to you when I post but to those who lurk and are sitting in the valley of decision as to what is truth or not. I used to be baptist where the belief of once saved always saved is very strong ( especially southern baptist) . In this belief they think you can sin with impunity after being saved and still remain saved no matter what you do.

The deception of OSAS starts out with the exact same philosophy of truth you have on grace and then goes on to an extreme level that leads one right back into sin again. Actually if you think about it's a masterful deception that satan has propagated here. One that is not only full of truth but tends to play right into the human nature we all have.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Interesting however that is not my view, nor my philosophy of truth. Truth to me is embodied in Christ, thus it is not a philosophy but the God who saves and perfects us..... the bible makes it clear, Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. 2 We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.

Paul says lets lay aside the sins that beset us and he tells us how that is done, by focusing on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith..... that much is clear to me....

 

[OntheDL]

I will refer back to the OP as 'salvation by performance' is not what this thread is about.

"...building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.




'Salvation by faith in Christ' who brings us close and away from sin and then the Holy Spirit does its work is totally scripturally supported and what I believe...

Red,

I would just add this to your post...

The thief on the cross will be able to enter into heaven because God knows man's heart. Had he (the thief) been given a chance, he would have cooperated with God and completed his walk to persevere and to overcome all sins.

Look at the three people died on the cross: one died for sins, one died in sins and one died from sins.

 

[freeindeed2]

I will refer back to the OP as 'salvation by performance' is not what this thread is about.

"...building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.


1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.

Man does not 'achieve' anything relating to righteousness at any time. If he has righteousness it is ONLY because it has been credited to him through faith. Jesus IS our righteousness.

2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

This will happen ONLY when we are rid of these corruptible bodies and given incorruptible bodies.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

Same as number 2. And perfect sinless Adam showed all of humanity what human 'free will' does.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.

Which is why we need a perfect Savior, a perfect Substitute. We are declared perfect, righteous, and holy ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ.

'Salvation by faith in Christ' who brings us close and away from sin and then the Holy Spirit does its work is totally scripturally supported and what I believe...

 

[OntheDL]

Interesting however that is not my view, nor my philosophy of truth. Truth to me is embodied in Christ, thus it is not a philosophy but the God who saves and perfects us..... the bible makes it clear, Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. 2 We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.

Paul says lets lay aside the sins that beset us and he tells us how that is done, by focusing on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith..... that much is clear to me....

If Jesus does perfect you, He will cleanse you from all sins. If you let him that is.

 

[reddogs]

Man does not 'achieve' anything relating to righteousness at any time. If he has righteousness it is ONLY because it has been credited to him through faith. Jesus IS our righteousness.


This will happen ONLY when we are rid of these corruptible bodies and given incorruptible bodies.


Same as number 2. And perfect sinless Adam showed all of humanity what human 'free will' does.


Which is why we need a perfect Savior, a perfect Substitute. We are declared perfect, righteous, and holy ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ.

Which is why no one can serve two 'masters' and chase after sin and love sin and hold on tight to sin as many who 'claim' they follow Christ do.

 

[StormyOne]

If Jesus does perfect you, He will cleanse you from all sins. If you let him that is.

when you say that I suspect it means something different than when I say that...

 

[reddogs]

I just want to say that I am 'pleasantly shocked' to see everyone discussing this issue in brotherly debate and discussion.......this is what we need in every thread...

 

[OntheDL]

when you say that I suspect it means something different than when I say that...

How do you define cleansing? Do it mean it washes away dirty and impurity or not?

 

[freeindeed2]

Which is why no one can serve two 'masters' and chase after sin and love sin and hold on tight to sin as many who 'claim' they follow Christ do.

Again, how are YOU able to discern who is a true believer and who is not? Are you able to read their hearts?