The Baptism debate

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]I can't do that. But there is no doubt that God used people like Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, and Caiaphas to accomplish his purposes. Surely the Holy Spirit was involved in those events even though it doesn't say so.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God did not give Pharaoh gifts of the Holy Spirit, nor any unbeliever.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I see nothing here I disagree with so I don't know why you think I don't know the truth.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You do not recognize that Cornelius and his whole household spoke in tongues as EVIDENCE of being baptized with the Holy Spirit. [/FONT]

1 Corinthians 14:22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

Speaking in tongues was for A SIGN to UNBELIEVERS that baptism of the Holy Spirit was given.


Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life."


They heard that the Gentiles were speaking in tongues. That let the Jews know that those Gentles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and were saved now too.

 

[whitebeaches]

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[greatdivide46]

God did not give Pharaoh gifts of the Holy Spirit, nor any unbeliever.

You may be right about that.

You do not recognize that Cornelius and his whole household spoke in tongues as EVIDENCE of being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

No, I don't. Yes, Cornelius and his household spoke in tongues but it's purpose was to show the Jews present that God would accept the Gentiles into His church. It's purpose was not to show that they had been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:22 -- Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

Yes, excellent verse.

Speaking in tongues was for A SIGN to UNBELIEVERS that baptism of the Holy Spirit was given.

No, it was a sign to unbelievers that the message they were hearing was from God. It was not a sign that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was given. If that were the case then why aren't there speaking in tongues every time the baptism of the Holy Spirit is given?

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life."

They heard that the Gentiles were speaking in tongues. That let the Jews know that those Gentles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and were saved now too.

No, it let the Jews know that those Gentiles were granted repentance that leads to life. The verse says nothing about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[98cwitr]

Not the same as baptism, if you are a Christian.

If you want to get real Scriptural, all water baptism is a baptism of repentance, not rebirth.

Quite similar. Water baptism is an outward symbol of a spiritual promise. Same with a wedding ring, but the actual marriage is the union of man and woman under God to become one, and it's the same with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit [rebirth], where man and God become eternally joined. There are many who have been baptized with water and will wind up in hell, this is because they were never reborn of Spirit.

 

[greatdivide46]

If you want to get real Scriptural, all water baptism is a baptism of repentance, not rebirth.

I think baptism is linked to both repentance and rebirth.

Quite similar. Water baptism is an outward symbol of a spiritual promise. Same with a wedding ring, but the actual marriage is the union of man and woman under God to become one, and it's the same with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit [rebirth], where man and God become eternally joined. There are many who have been baptized with water and will wind up in hell, this is because they were never reborn of Spirit.

I don't think your analogy of baptism to the wedding ring is accurate. I think baptism is more like the marriage license. My wife and I don't wear wedding rings, but we do have a marriage license.

 

[THIS]

You may be right about that.


No, I don't. Yes, Cornelius and his household spoke in tongues but it's purpose was to show the Jews present that God would accept the Gentiles into His church. It's purpose was not to show that they had been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Yes, excellent verse.

No, it was a sign to unbelievers that the message they were hearing was from God. It was not a sign that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was given. If that were the case then why aren't there speaking in tongues every time the baptism of the Holy Spirit is given?


No, it let the Jews know that those Gentiles were granted repentance that leads to life. The verse says nothing about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It is like an evil spirit...

I have explained it carefully and clearly to you, but you deny the truth.

 

[98cwitr]

I think baptism is linked to both repentance and rebirth.
.

And that's fine as long as you can back that belief up with Scripture!

Marriage license analogy is a bit too legalistic for my tastes

 

[greatdivide46]

And that's fine as long as you can back that belief up with Scripture!

John 3:5

Marriage license analogy is a bit too legalistic for my tastes

Nevertheless it's apropos

 

[Awaken4Christ]

Whenever I hear this question or debate, I get this sense of legalism around me. John the baptist declares that the baptism of water he is performing is lower compared to how Jesus will do it; which is with fire and the Holy Spirit.
Luke 3:16

"But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire"


Can a ritual save a person? God saves the person not the ritual.
I'm not 100 percent knowledgeable about baptism theology, but I would imagine that baptism comes after hearing the word and realizing that you need to repent. I am not sure about infant baptism but am completely sure about baptism when your older.



To address the sprinkle versus immersion....

Is the power in the water, or is the power in God?
I think immersion is probably the normal way to get baptized or Biblical if you want to give title, but doesn't it have the same effect as a sprinkle if God has given you a heart that repents during the process?


So yes there are things like Sprinkle vs Immersion....but what matters the most is .....Is your heart turning away from the world and to God?

 

[98cwitr]

John 3:5

Doesn't say they have to (or even suggests they) occur at the same time. Try again there friend.

Hey, here's a thought, what if the water He is talking about doesn't have to do with a water baptism Carefully look at verse 6

 

[now faith]

My thought is that none of it means squat unless you're Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I never would have guessed

 

[now faith]

What did Jesus do?
He was Baptised by Emerson then received the Holy Ghost.
if this has already been said then I did not read enough,but this is a simple truth.

 

[now faith]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You have been misled from the truth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]They were baptized with the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by their tongue speaking.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the time Jesus saves a person and gives them the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We can see this in the scriptures about Cornelius and his household. Jesus saved them when they heard the message that saves, see Acts 11:14. That is when the Holy Spirit “came on them”, see Acts 10:44. This is when they “received” the Holy Spirit, see Acts 10:47. This is “baptism of the Holy Spirit” see Acts 11:16.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 11:16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A person can have a heart that is sorry for sins, and be accepted by Jesus and saved, and given the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is a ceremony, a vow, a promise to God that you will die to the sins of the world.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,[/FONT]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the time Jesus saves a person?
So why did Paul lay hands on others who were preaching salvation through Christ but had not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

 

[greatdivide46]

Doesn't say they have to (or even suggests they) occur at the same time. Try again there friend.

No need to try again. I'm satisfied with God's word.

Hey, here's a thought, what if the water He is talking about doesn't have to do with a water baptism Carefully look at verse 6

OK, I looked carefully at verse 6. Is that supposed to convince me that Jesus is talking about two births in verse 5? I can assure you it does not.

"That which is born of flesh is flesh" refers to what Nicodemus said in verse 4. "That which is born of Spirit is spirit" refers to the birth Jesus mentions in verse 5.

 

[greatdivide46]

Whenever I hear this question or debate, I get this sense of legalism around me. John the baptist declares that the baptism of water he is performing is lower compared to how Jesus will do it; which is with fire and the Holy Spirit.

"But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire"

I see no declaration here that one baptism is higher or lower compared to another baptism. I guess one might see an implication of that, but it's clearly there is no declaration of such.

 

[greatdivide46]

What did Jesus do?
He was Baptised by Emerson then received the Holy Ghost.
if this has already been said then I did not read enough,but this is a simple truth.

Jesus was baptized by Emerson? Who in the world is Emerson?

I thought Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.

 

[THIS]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the time Jesus saves a person?

That is right.

So why did Paul lay hands on others who were preaching salvation through Christ but had not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Please give the scripture where Paul laid hands on others but they had not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[greatdivide46]

That is right.



Please give the scripture where Paul laid hands on others but they had not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-7.

 

[THIS]

Acts 19:1-7.

The passage does not say Paul laid hands on them and that they did NOT receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[greatdivide46]

The passage does not say Paul laid hands on them and that they did NOT receive the Holy Spirit.

True, but it does say they believed and were disciples, but didn't even know if there was a Holy Spirit. Which kind of puts the lie to the idea that the Holy Spirit is given at the moment of belief.