The Baptism debate

[THIS]

I agree with all you've said here.


Yes, this is true.

That's good.

I found your "proof" unconvincing. Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I am glad you agree with me about so much, but you still reject the truth about speaking in tongues happening when people are baptized. God does not give the Holy Spirit and its gifts to the unsaved.

You are going to need to study this more. I prove my beliefs from the scriptures.

We can see this in the scriptures about Cornelius and his household. Jesus saved them when they heard the message that saves, see Acts 11:14. That is when the Holy Spirit “came on them”, see Acts 10:44. This is when they “received” the Holy Spirit, see Acts 10:47. This is “baptism of the Holy Spirit” see Acts 11:16.

Acts 11:16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

Your mere denial is only that, denial. Prove from what I say here and the scriptures I give that I am wrong.

In Acts 11:16---PETER IS SPEAKING ABOUT THE GENTILES WHO SPOKE IN TONGUES. Peter understands that it is BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[greatdivide46]

I am glad you agree with me about so much, but you still reject the truth about speaking in tongues happening when people are baptized. God does not give the Holy Spirit and its gifts to the unsaved.

So you think Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar and Caiaphas were all saved?

You are going to need to study this more.

Undoubtedly that's true.

I prove my beliefs from the scriptures.

As I said, I find your "proof" unconvincing.

We can see this in the scriptures about Cornelius and his household. Jesus saved them when they heard the message that saves, see Acts 11:14.

Acts 11:14 doesn't say that Jesus saved them when they heard the message that saves. What it does say is that they would hear a message by which they would be saved. Not that they were saved as soon as they heard the message.

That is when the Holy Spirit “came on them”, see Acts 10:44.

Certainly the Holy Spirit fell on them. No doubt about that.

This is when they “received” the Holy Spirit, see Acts 10:47. This is “baptism of the Holy Spirit” see Acts 11:16.

No, what they received was the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit. This most assuredly is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit took place in Acts 10:48.

Your mere denial is only that, denial. Prove from what I say here and the scriptures I give that I am wrong.

I'm not here to prove anything. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe.

In Acts 11:16---PETER IS SPEAKING ABOUT THE GENTILES WHO SPOKE IN TONGUES. Peter understands that it is BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is never speaking in tongues. If it were we'd all speak in tongues because we're all baptized with the Holy Spirit (see 1 Corinthians 12:13).

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]So you think Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar and Caiaphas were all saved?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Why are you asking me this?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As I said, I find your "proof" unconvincing.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is to your loss.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 11:14 doesn't say that Jesus saved them when they heard the message that saves. What it does say is that they would hear a message by which they would be saved. Not that they were saved as soon as they heard the message.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You sound to me as if you are under control of a bad spirit when you say such things. [/FONT]

 

[greatdivide46]

Why are you asking me this?

Because you said God never gives the Holy Spirit to unsaved people. Yet, he used Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, and Caiaphas to accomplish His purposes. Surely the Holy Spirit had something to do with that.

That is to your loss.

You're probably right.

You sound to me as if you are under control of a bad spirit when you say such things.

So, because you don't agree with what Acts 11:14 really says it sounds to you as I'm under control of a bad spirit? All was doing was pointing out to you what the verse actually said.

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]Because you said God never gives the Holy Spirit to unsaved people. Yet, he used Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, and Caiaphas to accomplish His purposes. Surely the Holy Spirit had something to do with that.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God does not give gifts of the Holy Spirit to unsaved people.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You sound to me as if you are under control of a bad spirit when you say such things.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So, because you don't agree with what Acts 11:14 really says it sounds to you as I'm under control of a bad spirit? All was doing was pointing out to you what the verse actually said.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The scripture plainly and clearly says that Peter remembered about how the Lord will baptize with the Holy Spirit. This is about Cornelius and his household.[/FONT]

 

[greatdivide46]

God does not give gifts of the Holy Spirit to unsaved people.

I disagree, but OK.

The scripture plainly and clearly says that Peter remembered about how the Lord will baptize with the Holy Spirit. This is about Cornelius and his household.

Yes, of course. I don't disagree.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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[THIS]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I disagree, but OK.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to His children. Jesus baptizes those he saves with the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Show one scripture where an enemy of God received the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Show one scripture where God gives the gift to an unsaved person, a person who was not a child of God. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, of course. I don't disagree.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you agree, then why do you still not know the truth? The Holy Spirit came on Cornelius , and Peter remember about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]

 

[FreeinChrist]

Because you said God never gives the Holy Spirit to unsaved people. Yet, he used Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, and Caiaphas to accomplish His purposes. Surely the Holy Spirit had something to do with that.

You're probably right.

So, because you don't agree with what Acts 11:14 really says it sounds to you as I'm under control of a bad spirit? All was doing was pointing out to you what the verse actually said.

The Holy Spirit hardened the heart of Pharoah, but that was not giving him a gift of the Spirit. Same with Caiaphas.


Please consider that the role of the Holy Spirit changed some after the crucifixtion in that he became the Comforter. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bluelion]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to His children. Jesus baptizes those he saves with the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Show one scripture where an enemy of God received the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Show one scripture where God gives the gift to an unsaved person, a person who was not a child of God. [/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you agree, then why do you still not know the truth? The Holy Spirit came on Cornelius , and Peter remember about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]

You are right The Holy Spirit does now indwell in people who are not saved, hence, no gifts from The Holy Spirit. It has been taught to me a person receives the Holy Spirit at being saved, and not necessarily at baptism only. The biblical stand point for this Is when Paul argued before the council for the gentiles to be baptized after they receiving the Holy Spirit from receiving the word. Or being saved.

 

[greatdivide46]

God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to His children. Jesus baptizes those he saves with the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.

Show one scripture where an enemy of God received the Holy Spirit. Show one scripture where God gives the gift to an unsaved person, a person who was not a child of God.

I can't do that. But there is no doubt that God used people like Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, and Caiaphas to accomplish his purposes. Surely the Holy Spirit was involved in those events even though it doesn't say so.

If you agree, then why do you still not know the truth? The Holy Spirit came on Cornelius , and Peter remember about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I see nothing here I disagree with so I don't know why you think I don't know the truth.

 

[greatdivide46]

The Holy Spirit hardened the heart of Pharoah, but that was not giving him a gift of the Spirit. Same with Caiaphas.

Yes.

Please consider that the role of the Holy Spirit changed some after the crucifixtion in that he became the Comforter. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Absolutely.

 

[Bluelion]

Agreed.

I can't do that. But there is no doubt that God used people like Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, and Caiaphas to accomplish his purposes. Surely the Holy Spirit was involved in those events even though it doesn't say so.

I see nothing here I disagree with so I don't know why you think I don't know the truth.

You do know God struck the mind of Nebuchadnezzar and he went insane for 7 years then repented of his sins was healed and believed died saved with faith in God.

 

[greatdivide46]

You do know God struck the mind of Nebuchadnezzar and he went insane for 7 years then repented of his sins was healed and believed died saved with faith in God.

I do know God struck the mind of Nebuchadnezzar and he went insane for 7 years. I also know he recovered, but whether or not he died saved with faith in God or not, I don't know. Is there a passage in Scripture that says that?

 

[Bluelion]

I do know God struck the mind of Nebuchadnezzar and he went insane for 7 years. I also know he recovered, but whether or not he died saved with faith in God or not, I don't know. Is there a passage in Scripture that says that?

yep says he repented and turn to God and fear god after that. not sure where but if you read his story i am sure you will see it.

 

[greatdivide46]

yep says he repented and turn to God and fear god after that. not sure where but if you read his story i am sure you will see it.

I'm sure you're right, but I'll go back and read it. Thanks!

 

[98cwitr]

No, what I admitted in post #24 is that water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit are different. When I say there is no distinction, what I mean is that they occur at the same time and are two different aspects of the same event.

And we've shown several cases in Scripture where this is not the case.

 

[98cwitr]

If that's true, and I don't believe it is, but if it is, what then is the purpose of baptism?

What is the purpose of wearing a wedding ring if you are married?

 

[greatdivide46]

And we've shown several cases in Scripture where this is not the case.

I find the cases shown where this supposedly is not the case to be profoundly unconvincing.

 

[greatdivide46]

What is the purpose of wearing a wedding ring if you are married?

Not the same as baptism, if you are a Christian.