The Baptism debate

[98cwitr]

To answer lion's question in the OP, immersion seems proper to be. It more greatly represents the resurrection of Christ.

 

[Bluelion]

None of which lead to the Holy Spirit, as receiving Him is not something earned, it is freely given by God to the elect. It is about a change of heart from stone to flesh, for that is the only way to truly receive the Word. Recall the thief on the Cross, he was not baptized with water, but Christ accepted and saved him.

Acts 28:24
Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.

Why, in Acts 28, did some believe but not others?

some are called, I firmly believe the people who come to God came from God in the first place. Jesus spoke of this with the son who returns home after wasting his fathers wealth. I know people will try to label it as this or that, where did the other people come from I don't know, maybe satan.

I use the lost dog story to illustrate this. AS dog might wonder off but soon or later it returns home because that is where it is from and is fed. That is his home. Just my OP

 

[Bluelion]

A Baptist Elder and a Presbyterian widow were discussing the mode and manner of baptism. Latter that week the Elder received a phone call from the nice Presbyterian lady who ask if he would stop by she needed his assistance with something. When the Elder arrived he found out the lady's cat has died and she asked him to help bury it. The Elder said sure and went out to the back of the lot where the lady wanted the cat buried and sprinkled dirt over him and proclaimed, "your cat has been buried according to the Presbyterian understanding of the buried."

Now, I heard the joke only once before and I don't know if I got it right so please be kind. I think you get the picture.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

that's funny and I see the truth in it.

 

[greatdivide46]

Yep

John 1:33
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

See there is a differentiation between baptism with water (as noted by John), and baptism of Spirit, which is Spiritual, not worldly.

While I agree "there is a differentiation between baptism with water . . . and baptism in the Spirit" I still don't see where we get the idea that the baptism of the Spirit (as spiritual as it is), is a dry baptism.

 

[greatdivide46]

Christians are to be water baptized, even after having received the Holy Spirit.

How can we receive the Holy Spirit prior to baptism when Peter clearly says in Acts 2:38-39 that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given after baptism?

Acts 10:47 Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Don't you think that Peter is saying here that the Gentiles spoke in tongues just like those on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2?

 

[twin1954]

I know if I was on my death bed and had not been baptized i would want to be, The fear i would want to make sure. It is also commanded of everyone who is saved to be baptized.

I understand most people do it on their death bed out of fear, I think with so many doctrines going on it does bring people to fear. I still fear some times, Just tonight I was reading about King David and how a man stuck out his hand to steady the Ark and God struck him dead. We forget some times that side of God, I understand they did not have the blood of Jesus to cover their sins, but still scares me. I think all those people who have no fear of God are going to be in for a big surprise.

Makes me also think we better be sure about what judgement we pass on God's children because God is nothing to play with.

The word means immerse end of story. There can be no baptism without immersion.

The part in this post that concerns me is that you have no understanding of how Old Testament saints were saved and that you totally missed the point of the story of Uzza.

Old Testament saints were saved in exactly the same manner we are, they looked to the Redeemer. Job, considered the oldest book of the Bible, said this concerning his hope of salvation and the ressurection:
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
(Job 19:25-27)

The reason God killed Uzza was because he laid his hand to the representation of God's salvation. First they were not to put the Ark on a cart, even a new one, it was to be carried by the Levites appointed the task. Second that Ark represented Christ and salvation in Him. Man cannot lay his hand to God's salvation. Though Uzza acted without thinking and intended to help it was an affront to God's way of salvation and God killed him for it. It certainly ought to cause you to consider how you think you can come to God and be saved. David later said the Lord brought this breach upon us because we sought it not after the due order. We can't come to God any way we wish we must do it exactly as God has prescribed.

 

[98cwitr]

While I agree "there is a differentiation between baptism with water . . . and baptism in the Spirit" I still don't see where we get the idea that the baptism of the Spirit (as spiritual as it is), is a dry baptism.

Better question, since you recognize the differentiation, why do you think it has to do with anything worldly [such as water] at all?

 

[98cwitr]

How can we receive the Holy Spirit prior to baptism when Peter clearly says in Acts 2:38-39 that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given after baptism?

The Holy Spirit being evident pre-water baptism is found here:

Acts 10:47
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

 

[Bluelion]

The word means immerse end of story. There can be no baptism without immersion.

The part in this post that concerns me is that you have no understanding of how Old Testament saints were saved and that you totally missed the point of the story of Uzza.

Old Testament saints were saved in exactly the same manner we are, they looked to the Redeemer. Job, considered the oldest book of the Bible, said this concerning his hope of salvation and the ressurection:
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
(Job 19:25-27)

The reason God killed Uzza was because he laid his hand to the representation of God's salvation. First they were not to put the Ark on a cart, even a new one, it was to be carried by the Levites appointed the task. Second that Ark represented Christ and salvation in Him. Man cannot lay his hand to God's salvation. Though Uzza acted without thinking and intended to help it was an affront to God's way of salvation and God killed him for it. It certainly ought to cause you to consider how you think you can come to God and be saved. David later said the Lord brought this breach upon us because we sought it not after the due order. We can't come to God any way we wish we must do it exactly as God has prescribed.

they why does God say come as you are, repent and come.

I have no understanding That is a false judgement I have taken classes and wrote papers on the matter. Not that that makes me an authiorty but you certainly can not say I have no understanding either.

 

[Bluelion]

The Holy Spirit being evident pre-water baptism is found here:

Acts 10:47
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

and like someone else pointed out(forgive me not sure who) They still needed to be water baptized.

 

[twin1954]

they why does God say come as you are, repent and come.

I have no understanding That is a false judgement I have taken classes and wrote papers on the matter. Not that that makes me an authiorty but you certainly can not say I have no understanding either.

I didn't say that we cannot come as we are I said we cannot come any way we want.

Obviously you have no understanding if you can make the statement that the Old Testament saints were not covered by the blood of Christ. I don't care how many classes or papers you have written you lack Scriptural understanding. If that is what you were taught in your classes then whoever taught you has no understanding either and shouldn't be teaching anyone.

 

[98cwitr]

and like someone else pointed out(forgive me not sure who) They still needed to be water baptized.

Need? I dont think so. Should they, sure. Again, it's like wearing a wedding ring.

 

[THIS]

How can we receive the Holy Spirit prior to baptism when Peter clearly says in Acts 2:38-39 that the gift of the Holy Spirit is given after baptism?

Don't you think that Peter is saying here that the Gentiles spoke in tongues just like those on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2?

Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to those he accepts, see Acts 10:35.

Jesus can accept someone before they are water baptized.

 

[greatdivide46]

Better question, since you recognize the differentiation, why do you think it has to do with anything worldly [such as water] at all?

I'll answer this question, but I'd still like to know where we got the idea that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a dry baptism.

The reason I think the baptism of the Holy Spirit takes place in water is because the very definition of baptism is immersion in water. I see nothing in the six biblical references to the baptism of the Holy Spirit that would preclude it from occurring at the same time we are baptized.

 

[greatdivide46]

The Holy Spirit being evident pre-water baptism is found here:

Acts 10:47
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Yes, the Holy Spirit was evident pre-baptism here, just as he was in Acts 2. However, don't you think Peter is referring to the Gentile speaking in tongues just like they did in Acts 2, rather than the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Davesnothere]

Good morning,

I'll answer this question, but I'd still like to know where we got the idea that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a dry baptism.

The reason I think the baptism of the Holy Spirit takes place in water is because the very definition of baptism is immersion in water. I see nothing in the six biblical references to the baptism of the Holy Spirit that would preclude it from occurring at the same time we are baptized.

The apostles, and Cornelius... with Cornelius being the most notable, were baptized by the Spirit without being immersed. If I could fathom a guess as to why, it would be so that people could not identify baptism as a sacrament.

Kind regards,
Dave

 

[Davesnothere]

Yes, the Holy Spirit was evident pre-baptism here, just as he was in Acts 2. However, don't you think Peter is referring to the Gentile speaking in tongues just like they did in Acts 2, rather than the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Tongues are a gift of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit are dispersed to the church, one becomes a member of the church, the body of Christ, via the baptism of the Spirit. Cornelius is a prime example.

Kind regards,
Dave

 

[greatdivide46]

Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to those he accepts, see Acts 10:35.

Jesus can accept someone before they are water baptized.

I agree that Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to those he accepts. However, there is no mention of that in Acts 10:35. And part of the doing what is right that is mentioned in Acts 10:35 is to be baptized.

I also agree that Jesus can accept someone before they are baptized, however, I believe that in the vast majority of cases He still expects people to be baptized before they are acceptable to Him. Otherwise why would He say, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16)?

 

[greatdivide46]

Good morning,



The apostles, and Cornelius... with Cornelius being the most notable, were baptized by the Spirit without being immersed. If I could fathom a guess as to why, it would be so that people could not identify baptism as a sacrament.

Kind regards,
Dave

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that speaking in tongues is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

 

[greatdivide46]

Tongues are a gift of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit are dispersed to the church, one becomes a member of the church, the body of Christ, via the baptism of the Spirit. Cornelius is a prime example.

Kind regards,
Dave

I agree with all you've said here. What I don't understand is why we have decided to leave baptism out of this process when the Word of God clearly includes it.