The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Incorrect! All scripture is relevant to something at some time but all scripture is NOT relevant to every circumstance. The scripture I referred to was not relevant to the point in question at that instant. And you haven't shown the relevance

I’m a bit worried about you because of this reply brother. Relevant sometimes … not relevant … to every circumstance? What are you talking about my friend? And to what Scripture are you referring? And … what instant?

I think you need to do the long and hard thinking and recheck your scripture. Gehenna occurs 12 times in the N.T. 11 times spoken by Jesus, once in James 3:6 and hades occurs 11 times in the N.T. 7 times by Jesus Hades occurs in Acts 2:27, 2:31 and 1 Cor 15:55. tartarus is translated hell one time 2 Peter 2:4

You know I was referring to the other writers of the NT, not including the Gospels. I stand corrected on Acts/1st Corinthians and Hades, but the point is still valid. The two Scriptures from Acts and one from 1st Corinthians say nothing or point to anything concerning the eternal punishment of the unbelieving. They are speaking about the grave in relationship to The Christ and His completed works for the redemption of all mankind. I never mentioned Tartarus because, well, it‘s irrelevant. Unless you are one who believes there are three hells? Perhaps one hell with three compartments?

My friend, you wrote nothing to address anything I stated in my previous post except to point out I missed a couple of Scriptures, which do nothing to support the notion of an eternal place of punishment. I believe Gehenna applies to the Jews as no other NT writer, except he brother of Jesus, mentions Gehenna. And I showed you it had zip to do with ECP. Also noteworthy my brother is the beloved of Jesus, the Apostle John, makes no mention of Gehenna. Is it because perhaps his letter is commonly referred to as the Gospel to the gentiles? Hades is the grave. Period. It, along with death, is tossed into the LOF. The death of death IS the second death taking place in the LOF. Tartarus? Other than being incorrectly translated as hell; what about it?

How about taking some time to actually address the questions and statements in my previous post.

blessings

PS I love you my friend and my hearts desire for you is to see that the Cross, demonstrating the immeasurable love of God, is actively fulfilling the desire of God as He draws 100% all men to Himself and ultimately culminates in God being all in all.

THAT … is some serious Gospel brother.

blessngs

 

[Der Alte]

I’m a bit worried about you because of this reply brother. Relevant sometimes … not relevant … to every circumstance? What are you talking about my friend? And to what Scripture are you referring? And … what instant?


You know I was referring to the other writers of the NT, not including the Gospels. I stand corrected on Acts/1st Corinthians and Hades, but the point is still valid. The two Scriptures from Acts and one from 1st Corinthians say nothing or point to anything concerning the eternal punishment of the unbelieving. They are speaking about the grave in relationship to The Christ and His completed works for the redemption of all mankind. I never mentioned Tartarus because, well, it‘s irrelevant. Unless you are one who believes there are three hells? Perhaps one hell with three compartments?

My friend, you wrote nothing to address anything I stated in my previous post except to point out I missed a couple of Scriptures, which do nothing to support the notion of an eternal place of punishment. I believe Gehenna applies to the Jews as no other NT writer, except he brother of Jesus, mentions Gehenna. And I showed you it had zip to do with ECP. Also noteworthy my brother is the beloved of Jesus, the Apostle John, makes no mention of Gehenna. Is it because perhaps his letter is commonly referred to as the Gospel to the gentiles? Hades is the grave. Period. It, along with death, is tossed into the LOF. The death of death IS the second death taking place in the LOF. Tartarus? Other than being incorrectly translated as hell; what about it?

How about taking some time to actually address the questions and statements in my previous post.

blessings

PS I love you my friend and my hearts desire for you is to see that the Cross, demonstrating the immeasurable love of God, is actively fulfilling the desire of God as He draws 100% all men to Himself and ultimately culminates in God being all in all.

THAT … is some serious Gospel brother.

blessngs

These are not enough for you?
Matthew 5:22​

(22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell [gehenna] fire.​

Matthew 5:29​

(29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.[gehenna]​

Mark 9:45​

(45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell,[gehenna] into the fire that never shall be quenched:​

Luke 10:15​

(15) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.[gehenna]​

Luke 12:5​

(5) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell;[gehenna] yea, I say unto you, Fear him.​

Luke 16:23-24​

(23) And in hell [gehenna]he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.​

(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Incorrect! All scripture is relevant to something at some time but all scripture is NOT relevant to every circumstance. The scripture I referred to was not relevant to the point in question at that instant. And you haven't shown the relevance

I think you need to do the long and hard thinking and recheck your scripture. Gehenna occurs 12 times in the N.T. 11 times spoken by Jesus, once in James 3:6 and hades occurs 11 times in the N.T. 7 times by Jesus Hades occurs in Acts 2:27, 2:31 and 1 Cor 15:55. tartarus is translated hell one time 2 Peter 2:4

Did you ever wonder why if “eternal hell” was true and most of humanity is going to spend eternity there , why did God wait so long to tell humanity about it? That’s not what I call a loving act to wait about 4000 years of humanity to then say oh by the way if you don’t do what I tell you I will burn you forever. What kind of god would do that?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You might try actually reading my post. I gave 2 brief explanations.

It was rather humorous that you used Romans 6:7 to try to totally eliminate what 2 Cor. 5:19 says

I don't need to either eliminate or re-write 2 Cor. 5:19

God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people's sins against them.

And yes, sin does indwell the flesh in the form of the spirit of disobedience. The flesh itself is not evil, but the spirit of disobedience does reside therein, within ALL of us. We are no better than any other common sinner. Romans 3:9

The only difference is we are supposed to know our condition. Speak truthfully about it and not be its slave by having dominion over it. And anyone can do this, once they see the facts of it.

God is The Father of all people, period. Matt. 23:9

 

[Der Alte]

It was rather humorous that you used Romans 6:7 to try to totally eliminate what 2 Cor. 5:19 says

I don't need to either eliminate or re-write 2 Cor. 5:19

God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people's sins against them.

And yes, sin does indwell the flesh in the form of the spirit of disobedience. The flesh itself is not evil, but the spirit of disobedience does reside therein, within ALL of us. We are no better than any other common sinner. Romans 3:9

The only difference is we are supposed to know our condition. Speak truthfully about it and not be its slave by having dominion over it. And anyone can do this, once they see the facts of it.

God is The Father of all people, period. Matt. 23:9

Try actually reading my post and respond to each point I made individually as I addressed them. Neither response depended on or referred to the other. The following passage illustrates my belief and position. I will revisit that post but I'm quite sure everything I said should be quite clear.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

​

Matthew 24:35-36​

(35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.​

(36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.​

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

These are not enough for you?​

My brother, why are you supplying me with these Scriptures? I don’t recall asking you for Scriptures Gehenna other than the ones mentioned in the Gospels. One of several questions I did ask was:

Did the disciples fulfill the Great Commission? If yes, why did none of them, apart from James, speak of Gehenna? Listen, if Jesus gave them a command to make disciples… teaching them to observe everything He taught, then there are only two conclusions I can see available concerning their obedience or lack there of:
1). They chose to disobey Him and not speak concerning this “eternal place of punishment“ because their epistles say nothing of Gehenna.
2). They did teach what Jesus taught them and Gehenna was not a part of His instructions.
***My thought is they understood this teaching of Gehenna was for the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”, to whom Jesus says he specifically came.
”He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” | English Standard Version Revision 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

bible.com

Let’s go ahead and look at your first passage in Mathew. But let’s go back to verse 21 and through 26 for full context (see below). I just want to make a few observations that perhaps you may wish to make comment.

Matthew 5:22​

(22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell [gehenna] fire.​

”“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭21‬-‭26‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 5:21-26 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to | English Standard Version Revisi

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to

bible.com

Interesting scale of justice Jesus uses here in verses 21&22. The actual act of murder warrants being liable to judgement … then Jesus equates anger to the same judgement (council). Note: this is not the GWT Judgement …
2). Then, speaking to your brother/sister with contempt (Raka), will earn you a seat at court before the Sanhedrin.
3). Now, dare you call your brother a fool and you will face the fire of Gehenna! I believe this is what James had in mind when he used Gehenna in his epistle.

Question: Why does Jesus state you go to Gehenna for just calling “Your Brother” a fool but the actual act of murder only gets you before the general council? Weird scale of justice don’t you think?

Now Jesus tells them in verses 23-26, based on what I just told you (therefore), if you go to worship knowing you are in the hot seat with a brother … go make it right! Why? Their adversary (hey “Believeitornot”, perhaps I’m starting to see what you have been speaking about) may take you to court, and if found guilty, you will go to prison and NOT GET OUT until your debt has been completely paid. Right down to the last penny!

Question: Are you one who believes that Gehenna is the LOF? If you are, according to Jesus, there is indeed a limit to the amount of time spent in there because they do eventually get out!

I dunno, perhaps would lIke to offer your interpretation of Mathew 21-26?

blessings

Matthew 5:29​

(29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.[gehenna]​

Mark 9:45​

(45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell,[gehenna] into the fire that never shall be quenched:​

Luke 10:15​

(15) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.[gehenna]​

Luke 12:5​

(5) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell;[gehenna] yea, I say unto you, Fear him.​

Luke 16:23-24​

(23) And in hell [gehenna]he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.​

(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.​

 

[Lukaris]

Did you ever wonder why if “eternal hell” was true and most of humanity is going to spend eternity there , why did God wait so long to tell humanity about it? That’s not what I call a loving act to wait about 4000 years of humanity to then say oh by the way if you don’t do what I tell you I will burn you forever. What kind of god would do that?

Before Moses, there was law given to Noah ( Genesis 9:1-17, ex of per Ezekiel 18:4-9) which still has applications to non Christians ( Romans 2:6-16). When the Lord was taken from the Cross, placed in the sepulcher, & prior to His resurrection, He descended to Hades. There He preached to the righteous & non righteous ( 1 Peter 3:18-22, 1 Peter 4:1-6, Ephesians 4:8-9 ). There is overlap between the Noah commandments & the 10 Commandments ( Exodus 20:1-17) & the commandments the Lord reiterated with the rich young man ( Matthew 19:16-31) & reiterated by St. Paul ( Romans 13:8-10).

These commandments are recognized as
such by Judaism:

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Before Moses, there was law given to Noah ( Genesis 9:1-17, ex of per Ezekiel 18:4-9) which still has applications to non Christians ( Romans 2:6-16). When the Lord was taken from the Cross, placed in the sepulcher, & prior to His resurrection, He descended to Hades. There He preached to the righteous & non righteous ( 1 Peter 3:18-22, 1 Peter 4:1-6, Ephesians 4:8-9 ). There is overlap between the Noah commandments & the 10 Commandments ( Exodus 20:1-17) & the commandments the Lord reiterated with the rich young man ( Matthew 19:16-31) & reiterated by St. Paul ( Romans 13:8-10).

These commandments are recognized as
such by Judaism:

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ok what does that have to do with the idea that what we call” eternal hell” is not mentioned for over 4000 years of human history? Also I can’t find the Noah laws in my Bible, please tell what book they are in.

 

[Lukaris]

Ok what does that have to do with the idea that what we call” eternal hell” is not mentioned for over 4000 years of human history? Also I can’t find the Noah laws in my Bible, please tell what book they are in.

The laws given to Noah are those stated by the Lord & Paul as I referenced in my post & derived from Genesis 9:1-17. It might seem murky but the Lord said these first & it is interesting that Judaism actually affirms commandments stated by the Lord & Paul.

Everlasting life & everlasting condemnation are mentioned in Daniel 12:1-4 & affirmed by the Lord in John 5:22-30.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Vs. 21 is quite clear "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;..."

I've addressed this many times. People and the tempter or his own are bound together in this present life.

God saves the person

God condemns the devils

Just as Jesus spoke to Satan in Peter or in Judas or any thousands of other devils in mankind

Where your claim falls short is only seeing people in the equation.

Yet even if Paul says sins are not counted against people, your position openly denies the statement

I have no issues with Jesus looking any person in the face and condemning SATAN, or in the finale, sending Satan and his own to the fires of eternal hell

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The laws given to Noah are those stated by the Lord & Paul as I referenced in my post & derived from Genesis 9:1-17. It might seem murky but the Lord said these first & it is interesting that Judaism actually affirms commandments stated by the Lord & Paul.

Everlasting life & everlasting condemnation are mentioned in Daniel 12:1-4 & affirmed by the Lord in John 5:22-30.

I just read Gen 9:1-17 and the only thing it talks about is not eating meat that has its blood in it, other than that the rest are made up not from Gen9:1-17 . As for Dan 12:1-4 the word translated forever or eternal depending on what translation you read uses the Hebrew word Olam which doesn’t mean forever or eternal but “ the end is not seen” , the Greek is Aion which means age or eon both of which do not mean eternal. So for me I can’t buy what is being sold.

 

[Der Alte]

Did the disciples fulfill the Great Commission? If yes, why did none of them, apart from James, speak of Gehenna? Listen, if Jesus gave them a command to make disciples… teaching them to observe everything He taught, then there are only two conclusions I can see available concerning their obedience or lack there of:
1). They chose to disobey Him and not speak concerning this “eternal place of punishment“ because their epistles say nothing of Gehenna.
2). They did teach what Jesus taught them and Gehenna was not a part of His instructions.
***My thought is they understood this teaching of Gehenna was for the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”, to whom Jesus says he specifically came.
”He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” | English Standard Version Revision 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

bible.com

So the Jews have different rules than non-Jews? That some of the apostles did not mention gehenna or hades to me is irrelevant Jesus did, that is enough for me. You can twist the scipture however you choose.

Let’s go ahead and look at your first passage in Mathew. But let’s go back to verse 21 and through 26 for full context (see below). I just want to make a few observations that perhaps you may wish to make comment.

”“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭21‬-‭26‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 5:21-26 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to | English Standard Version Revisi

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to

bible.com

Interesting scale of justice Jesus uses here in verses 21&22. The actual act of murder warrants being liable to judgement … then Jesus equates anger to the same judgement (council). Note: this is not the GWT Judgement …
2). Then, speaking to your brother/sister with contempt (Raka), will earn you a seat at court before the Sanhedrin.

What is the prescribed punishment for murder under the law?

3). Now, dare you call your brother a fool and you will face the fire of Gehenna! I believe this is what James had in mind when he used Gehenna in his epistle.

Question: Why does Jesus state you go to Gehenna for just calling “Your Brother” a fool but the actual act of murder only gets you before the general council? Weird scale of justice don’t you think?

See previous response.

Now Jesus tells them in verses 23-26, based on what I just told you (therefore), if you go to worship knowing you are in the hot seat with a brother … go make it right! Why? Their adversary (hey “Believeitornot”, perhaps I’m starting to see what you have been speaking about) may take you to court, and if found guilty, you will go to prison and NOT GET OUT until your debt has been completely paid. Right down to the last penny!

You might try reading that passage again "in context." Is anyone in gehenna or hades earning any pennies?

1 Timothy 6:7​

(7) For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.​

Question: Are you one who believes that Gehenna is the LOF? If you are, according to Jesus, there is indeed a limit to the amount of time spent in there because they do eventually get out!
I dunno, perhaps would lIke to offer your interpretation of Mathew 21-26?

blessings

I don't know and I don't care.

 

[Der Alte]

I've addressed this many times. People and the tempter or his own are bound together in this present life.

God saves the person

God condemns the devils

God punishes sinners.
Jeremiah 13:11-14

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they [plural people, not satan] would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, [people not Satan] saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Just as Jesus spoke to Satan in Peter or in Judas or any thousands of other devils in mankind
Where your claim falls short is only seeing people in the equation.
Yet even if Paul says sins are not counted against people, your position openly denies the statement

I read the full context. Not just a few verses out-of-context which seem to support some assumptions and presuppositions.

I have no issues with Jesus looking any person in the face and condemning SATAN, or in the finale, sending Satan and his own to the fires of eternal hell

Luke 16:19-31​

(19) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:​

(20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid [thrown] at his gate, full of sores,​

(21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.​

(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;​

(23) And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.​

(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.​

(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.​

(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. [no escape]​

(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:​

(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

(29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.​

(30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.​

(31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.​

FYI the rich man violated a specific law in the O.T.

 

[Lukaris]

I just read Gen 9:1-17 and the only thing it talks about is not eating meat that has its blood in it, other than that the rest are made up not from Gen9:1-17 . As for Dan 12:1-4 the word translated forever or eternal depending on what translation you read uses the Hebrew word Olam which doesn’t mean forever or eternal but “ the end is not seen” , the Greek is Aion which means age or eon both of which do not mean eternal. So for me I can’t buy what is being sold.

I am only repeating Jewish interpretation of the law given to Noah which matches the same commandments stated by Jesus Christ and St. Paul.

Biblical Sources for the 7 Noachide laws

Waterfalls at Yosemite Park by C.L.Five of the Noahide Commandments are explicitly found in different verses in the Book of Genesis, and one is found in Leviticus. The remaining one (and in fact all them) can be inferred from a single verse in Genesis. [1]

jewsforjudaism.org

18th century Jewish theologian Jacob Emden was so surprised by this that he believed that Jesus and Paul were merely teaching the Noah law to the Gentiles. Too bad he didn’t know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

You Won’t Believe What This 18th Century Rabbi Said About Christianity

My apologies for the clickbait title. But, for once, it’s actually true! You legitimately would not believe what Rabbi Jacob Emden—one of the most famous

www.patheos.com

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I am only repeating Jewish interpretation of the law given to Noah which matches the same commandments stated by Jesus Christ and St. Paul.

Biblical Sources for the 7 Noachide laws

Waterfalls at Yosemite Park by C.L.Five of the Noahide Commandments are explicitly found in different verses in the Book of Genesis, and one is found in Leviticus. The remaining one (and in fact all them) can be inferred from a single verse in Genesis. [1]

jewsforjudaism.org

18th century Jewish theologian Jacob Emden was so surprised by this that he believed that Jesus and Paul were merely teaching the Noah law to the Gentiles. Too bad he didn’t know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

You Won’t Believe What This 18th Century Rabbi Said About Christianity

My apologies for the clickbait title. But, for once, it’s actually true! You legitimately would not believe what Rabbi Jacob Emden—one of the most famous

www.patheos.com

Ok it sounded like those who believe in the Noahide laws got them from Genesis and I couldn’t see it in Genesis. So it’s a Jewish thing then .

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

So the Jews have different rules than non-Jews? That some of the apostles did not mention gehenna or hades to me is irrelevant Jesus did, that is enough for me. You can twist the scipture however you choose.

What is the prescribed punishment for murder under the law?

See previous response.

You might try reading that passage again "in context." Is anyone in gehenna or hades earning any pennies?

1 Timothy 6:7​

(7) For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.​

I don't know and I don't care.

I know you don’t care brother ... You have your safe place in the arms of orthodoxy which is all too willing to keep you imprisoned. You are comfortable with keeping your blinders on. Refusing to even take the time to consider anything that could possibly disrupt your theological paradigm.

The chains of orthodoxy are big, heavy and quite burdensome; yet, at the same time familiar. So you forge ahead, carrying that which Jesus loosed you from and yet still remain imprisoned. No worries my friend. When the time is right, our wonderful loving Heavenly Father will declare to your heart the truth of that which was kept secret by God since the beginning but now revealed through His Son. Therefore, let us continue to spur one another on to good works as we seek the face of the Lord.

Love you my friend …
blessings

 

[Der Alte]

I just read Gen 9:1-17 and the only thing it talks about is not eating meat that has its blood in it, other than that the rest are made up not from Gen9:1-17 . As for Dan 12:1-4 the word translated forever or eternal depending on what translation you read uses the Hebrew word Olam which doesn’t mean forever or eternal but “ the end is not seen” , the Greek is Aion which means age or eon both of which do not mean eternal. So for me I can’t buy what is being sold.

Incorrect. Both "olam" and "aionios" do, in fact, mean eternal., everlasting, etc. See my 2 posts where I clearly demonstrate this from scripture only.
OLAM

Olam/עולם means eternal/everlasting

I have been active at Christian Forums for more than 2 decades. One of the frequent arguments I have seen is "The Hebrew word "Olam" never means eternal/everlasting." I decided to review every occurrence of olam in the Old Testament. I have listed 48 vss. where Olam is defined as...

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AIONIOS

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

I provided enough citings to see if you have grasp of the subject matter. You've answered by no answer. I get why you don't get it. It's not your fault Even the citing you give has the black hole of the typical one sided voided picture missing the vital party to the drama, our adversary, the...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Der Alte]

I know you don’t care brother ... You have your safe place in the arms of orthodoxy which is all too willing to keep you imprisoned. You are comfortable with keeping your blinders on. Refusing to even take the time to consider anything that could possibly disrupt your theological paradigm.

I am NOT imprisoned. I have repeatedly examined every argument presented here for more than 20 years.

The chains of orthodoxy are big, heavy and quite burdensome; yet, at the same time familiar. So you forge ahead, carrying that which Jesus loosed you from and yet still remain imprisoned. No worries my friend. When the time is right, our wonderful loving Heavenly Father will declare to your heart the truth of that which was kept secret by God since the beginning but now revealed through His Son. Therefore, let us continue to spur one another on to good works as we seek the face of the Lord.

Love you my friend …
blessings

Instead of repeatedly insulting me refute my understanding of these 2 passages.

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.​

(12) Moreover thou shalt speak unto them this word: Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Every bottle is filled with wine'; and when they shall say unto thee: 'Do we not know that every bottle is filled with wine?'​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

Vs., 14 does NOT say or imply that God will someday have pity on those destroyed

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean someday by an by.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I am NOT imprisoned. I have repeatedly examined every argument presented here for more than 20 years.

Instead of repeatedly insulting me refute my understanding of these 2 passages.

Not intended to insult you my friend … I have been where you are and only have love for you in my heart. Just speaking the truth with love and hoping to stir your heart a bit.

blessings

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.​

(12) Moreover thou shalt speak unto them this word: Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: 'Every bottle is filled with wine'; and when they shall say unto thee: 'Do we not know that every bottle is filled with wine?'​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them: Thus saith the LORD: Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.​

Vs., 14 does NOT say or imply that God will someday have pity on those destroyed

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean someday by an by.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God punishes sinners.

I have no issues with God punishing every sinner, starting with believers. The body dies because of sin, including believers bodies. Romans 8:10

Otherwise God is a double dealer, treating the so called "unsaved" people's sins differently than believers who get excused and are off the hook

But as previously noted sins are not counted against people. Sins are counted against devils, in everyone.

I read the full context. Not just a few verses out-of-context which seem to support some assumptions and presuppositions.

You've already conceded the fact that Jesus and the Apostles addressed Satan and devils in mankind. A fact for which your positions ignore entirely. This in fact is the main weakness in many one sided theology positions.

FYI the rich man violated a specific law in the O.T.

See last comment. You see only a person. IF you understood parables, which the rich man parable is, the identity of the non named rich man is obvious.

Jesus advised us clearly in Mark 4:13 that there are 3 parties involved with every parable:

God
People
The devil or his own

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man we have Abraham, a prophet who spoke God's Words, in this case post death, Lazarus and the rich man. Using the information that Jesus gave us which of the 3 would the rich man be? We also know from Jesus that evil spirits depart people and scripture that shows devils consider man "their house."

I'd even go so far as to say people who don't accept the facts of this matter may not even be the person speaking. I have often seen people react violently to the real Gospel and it's definitely a DEMONIC reaction in them, not the person.