The 7's are INSIDE each other - they CANNOT be an end-to-end future timetable

[Timtofly]

Correct in what you are saying about the beasts in Revelation 13. And the horns and beasts in Daniel.

In all of those passages, the little horn person is associated with being a king of the Roman Empire.

And that Roman Empire kingdom is the EU.

There will be the Antichrist though. A person who will be anointed the King of Israel, but coming in his own name. That person will be the little horn person, a Jew, as the leader of the EU, aforehand to becoming the Antichrist.

little horn > prince who shall come> anointed the King of Israel> revealed as the man of sin> beast.

Do you think Antiochus Epiphanies was from the lost 10 tribes?

 

[Douggg]

Do you think Antiochus Epiphanies was from the lost 10 tribes?

No.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

If you are thinking Revelation 17:8, trying to figure out that verse, the mystery of the scarlet colored beast (Satan) the woman was riding - the verse has to be taken in two parts, "a" and "b".

The (a) and (b) are my commentary, and not in the actual text.

8 (a) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: (b) and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

(a) is referring to the serpent beast in the garden that allowed itself to be used by Satan.

(b) is referring to the end times person, the little horn, who will become the Antichrist, and as his last act as the Antichrist, the 2Thessalonians2:4 act - it gets him killed for it. Ezekiel 28:1-10.

Then in Isaiah 14:18-20, God in disdain for the person, because that person too allows himself to be used by Satan, brings him back to life - to go on to his final destruction in the lake of fire. And that the mystery of God revealed through the prophets be completed.

At which time, of the person coming back to life, the spirit of the serpent is allowed to come out of the bottomless pit and possess him.

_______________________________________________________

Therefore, the mark of the beast - "could be" (because we really don't know) a serpent.

 

[Timtofly]

No.

Then how can he be the one who set up the Abomination of desolation written about by Daniel, that the Jews of Jesus' day knew all too well? He does not fit your criteria. Do you not think the Antiochus Epiphanies was the little horn? What Greek king after the 4 generals divided the kingdom was the little horn? This does not involve the Romans. The Romans came after the Greeks. Rome itself eventually split into two sections. But that was centuries after Christ.

If as you claim, a little horn shows up again, it will not be "from Rome". If any thing it will come out of Asia as in Turkey, where the little horn came from. Gog and Magog.

 

[Timtofly]

Therefore, the mark of the beast - "could be" (because we really don't know) a serpent.

Revelation 17 and 18 are the result of Satan's 42 months. He is a very busy person. The FP, Satan, and the beast are defined at the start of the 42 months. They are not the result of the 42 months. What happens during those 42 months and at the end is described in 17 and 18. This is not even the same geography as we now know it. If this 42 months happens there will be less than 2 billion people on earth, if even that many.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Interesting graphic. However I think the Day of the Lord starts with the 7 Trumpets not the 7 bowls of wrath but based on my Futurist view and world events, I don't think we'll have to wonder much longer who is right in their interpretation of Revelation.

The graphic depicts a pattern in Revelation. The 7th seal ACTUALLY IS the trumpets. The 7th trump ACTUALLY IS the bowls. An interesting study of the last ‘seven’ always finds them arriving at the same place, the appearance of Christ.
(Maybe a thought for another topic?)

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I understand your view Mr. Gedge. It is just not consistent with what I have read thus far in my study books, but again, I am no where near the expert that most of you are so I am still trying to learn. How did you discern that the 7 seals, trumpets and bowls are overlapping and not sequential?

 

[keras]

How did you discern that the 7 seals, trumpets and bowls are overlapping and not sequential?

They don't 'discern' that at all. People with ideas like that are confused and unable to see the literal fulfillment of the 7 Seals, Trumpets and Bowls.
[Of course some are metaphors, that depict or represent a reality]
They culminate in the Return of Jesus, which is the Seventh Bowl, as CG says. Revelation 16:16-18

They are not concurrent, overlapping or all at once.
The first Five Seals are open and have been since the first Century. Proved by all the martyrs since Stephen.
The Seventh Seal is a time gap, that's all. Adding any other meaning to it is wrong and incurs the curses of Rev 22:18

 

[Christian Gedge]

They are not concurrent, overlapping or all at once.

They are overlapping. The 7th seal ACTUALLY IS the trumpets. The 7th trump ACTUALLY IS the bowls.

 

[Douggg]

Then how can he be the one who set up the Abomination of desolation written about by Daniel, that the Jews of Jesus' day knew all too well? He does not fit your criteria. Do you not think the Antiochus Epiphanies was the little horn?

No, Antiochus was not the little horn. Antiochus's act of setting a statue of Zeus in the temple prefigured what the end time abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15 will be.

What Greek king after the 4 generals divided the kingdom was the little horn? This does not involve the Romans. The Romans came after the Greeks. Rome itself eventually split into two sections. But that was centuries after Christ.

The little horn comes out of the Roman Empire (from Daniel 7:23-25 and from Daniel 9:26-27). When he stands up in Daniel 8:24, an idiom for prepares to go for war, he stages his in army in Greece, the eastern frontier of the EU. (Greece was one of the four break-up kingdoms of Alexander's Great Greek Empire.)

Why? Because Gog/Magog is about to happen. Following Gog/Magog, the little horn comes into the middle east - the prince who shall come - from north and west of Israel. Daniel 8:9.

The Jews in the aftermath of Gog/Magog, will think the little horn person is their messiah. For one reason it will appear to them as though he was about to fight the battles of God in defending Israel (by his action of staging his army in Greece).

Fighting the battles of God in defending Israel, is one of the traits the Jews expect of the messiah.

______________________________________________________________

The little horn person will be different from the other ten EU kings (leaders). Different, in that he will be a Jew.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 17 and 18 are the result of Satan's 42 months. He is a very busy person. The FP, Satan, and the beast are defined at the start of the 42 months. They are not the result of the 42 months. What happens during those 42 months and at the end is described in 17 and 18. This is not even the same geography as we now know it. If this 42 months happens there will be less than 2 billion people on earth, if even that many.

Tim, you need to drop this expression "Satan's 42 months" because it is not in the bible and nobody knows what you are talking about.

Regarding the mark of the beast may be a serpent, back in the days of King Hezekiah the people of Israel had perverted the bronze image of the serpent that God instructed Moses to have made, into burning incense to it.

So Hezekiah had the image of the serpent destroyed.

2Kings:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

 

[keras]

They are overlapping. The 7th seal ACTUALLY IS the trumpets. The 7th trump ACTUALLY IS the bowls.

That is not how Revelation describes them.
They are a sequential series of events. The Seventh Seal informs us that all the end time events from then until Jesus Returns, will be 'about 20 years'. Using the given formula of 1 day in heaven equaling 1000 years earth time. We know that the Fifth Trumpet will be for 5 months. Rev 9:5.

Why? Because Gog/Magog is about to happen

How can that be? The people in the holy Land are not yet the ones described in Ezekiel 38.

Fighting the battles of God in defending Israel, is one of the traits the Jews expect of the messiah.

The Jewish State of Israel will be gone on the Day the Lord sends fire upon them. Jeremiah 12:14, Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 29:1-4, Ezekiel 21:1-7

 

[Douggg]

An interesting study of the last ‘seven’ always finds them arriving at the same place, the appearance of Christ.

Such as in Ezekiel 39:21-29, 7 years after the Gog/Magog event.

 

[Douggg]

How can that be? The people in the holy Land are not yet the ones described in Ezekiel 38.

And why aren't those Daniel's people the Jews?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[keras]

And why aren't those Daniel's people the Jews?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel was a Jewish Israelite.
Paul says not all those of Israel are true Israelites, he says those people with the Christian faith will be grafted into Israel and THEY are the Israel of God.
The majority will be people descended from Jacob; all 12 tribes, incl Jews. The rest will be people from every race, nation and language.

I have to wonder at your reading of all the Bible prophesies. I have posted here many prophesies that tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. Only a remnant of them will survive.
Any ideas of their redemption, is wrong and made only to support the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel was a Jewish Israelite.
Paul says not all those of Israel are true Israelites, he says those people with the Christian faith will be grafted into Israel and THEY are the Israel of God.
The majority will be people descended from Jacob; all 12 tribes, incl Jews. The rest will be people from every race, nation and language.

Paul never said the people in Ezekiel 38 were not Daniel's people the Jews.

 

[keras]

Paul never said the people in Ezekiel 38 were not Daniel's people the Jews.

They can't be the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel.
They will be gone after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Isaiah 22:1-14
The entire Middle East will be depopulated and cleansed. Isaiah 28:22b, Jeremiah 12:3 & 10-14, Hosea 4:3, +

Again i say: your 'rapture' beliefs have put you astray. The apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews will be punished.
Believe the Bible for a change; ONLY A REMNANT WILL SURVIVE.

 

[Douggg]

They can't be the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel.
They will be gone after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Isaiah 22:1-14
The entire Middle East will be depopulated and cleansed. Isaiah 28:22b, Jeremiah 12:3 & 10-14, Hosea 4:3, +

Again i say: your 'rapture' beliefs have put you astray. The apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews will be punished.
Believe the Bible for a change; ONLY A REMNANT WILL SURVIVE.

Only a remnant did survive coming out of WWII, the holocaust.

We are the parable of the fig tree generation.

 

[DavidPT]

They can't be the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel.
They will be gone after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Isaiah 22:1-14
The entire Middle East will be depopulated and cleansed. Isaiah 28:22b, Jeremiah 12:3 & 10-14, Hosea 4:3, +

Again i say: your 'rapture' beliefs have put you astray. The apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews will be punished.
Believe the Bible for a change; ONLY A REMNANT WILL SURVIVE.

Just like Pretribbers you too apparently think the day of the Lord can happen without it even involving the 2nd coming of Christ. The day of the Lord is what comes like a thief in the night, and so does Christ.

 

[Douggg]

Just like Pretribbers you too apparently think the day of the Lord can happen without it even involving the 2nd coming of Christ. The day of the Lord is what comes like a thief in the night, and so does Christ.

Good point.

(assuming I have his view correct) Keras has the Day of the Lord taking place as a solar event wiping out the population in the middle east, including the majority of Jews living in Israel.

And a global reaction to put together a one world government. Then a period of time as all the Christians in the world move into what is a decimated middle east. Then 20 years or so to rebuild Israel into the church nation of Beulah. And after that, the 7 year 70th week begun by an agreement between Beulah and the leader of the one world government.

Which in the middle of the seven years, the leader of the one world government stops the daily sacrifice of lambs, which he had allowed under the agreement - goes into the temple built by the Church nation, sits, and claims himself to be God or having achieved God-hood.

@keras

If I have misrepresented your view, please clarify and I will edit my post accordingly.

 

[Douggg]

Just like Pretribbers you too apparently think the day of the Lord can happen without it even involving the 2nd coming of Christ. The day of the Lord is what comes like a thief in the night, and so does Christ.

David, the rapture/resurrection could happen pre-70th week or it may not. But if it does happen pre-70th week, it is not likely to be years before the 70th week begins. I could be wrong.