The 7's are INSIDE each other - they CANNOT be an end-to-end future timetable

eclipsenow

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I think it's great how the Bible Project (over 4 million views) point out the way the 7's are INSIDE each other like Matryoshka dolls rather than in sequence.

That's John's primary visual aid that shows Revelation is thematic, not linear.

It describes this phase of history after Jesus ascension and before his return.
It does not prescribe a specific sequence of events in the future - it cannot.
Time inside time inside time makes no sense and simply is not a timetable.
But it being a series of themes that John uses to roughly describe what the last 2000 years would be like - well - that makes much more sense of this symbolic literature.

Please watch the following 2 videos by the Bible Project.

Who is The Bible Project?

Tim went on to pursue a degree in theology from Western Seminary in Portland and a Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Jewish Studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Tim’s early research and writing interests focused on the manuscript history of the Bible and the formation of the biblical canon. He really loves ancient Greek and Hebrew texts!

After years of ministry as a local church pastor, Tim now serves as the Chief Education Officer for BibleProject and is an adjunct professor at Western Seminary. Tim is fascinated with the literary artistry and design of the Bible, and he is committed to helping people understand how the whole story works together and leads us to Jesus.
Tim Mackie PhD in Hebrew Bible, BibleProject Co-Founder | BibleProject™

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DavidPT

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IOW, what this topic implies is this. No one is able to understand the book of Revelation on their own, meaning from their own readings. Or if they can they have to be a rocket scientist if they can understand it on their own without the aid of outside sources, such as brought up in the OP per those videos. Or the other option is, one can only understand the book of Revelation if one is willing to totally submit to the teachings of others, such as what was provided per those videos. But if one is not willing to do that, everything one is concluding in the meantime is all in vain and a total waste of time on that person's part.
 
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Christian Gedge

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I wish I was an artist like the guys in Bible Project. However here's a diagram I made of the Revelation 'sevens' a few years back.

revsequence.webp
 
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Douggg

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It describes this phase of history after Jesus ascension and before his return.
It does not prescribe a specific sequence of events in the future - it cannot.
Revelation 6-19 is the 70th week of Daniel 9.

Since the first 69 weeks are ended by Jesus's death on the cross, there is only one possible week left. A 7 year block of time, which in the middle of that 7 years the prince who shall come stops the daily sacrifice and abominations occur for the remainder of the week.

Which Revelation 6-19 have in them the 1260 days, the 42 months, and the time, times, half time.

Which Revelation 6-19 cannot be across a broad span of history.

When someone at the Bible Project acknowledges it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, let me know. Because the framework for the timeline of the final 70th week is in Ezekiel 39. But as it is, I haven't heard a single You Tube commentator recognize that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth.

The guys at Bible Project don't even know about it or else they would change the way they look at Revelation. There's the problem - unawareness.


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DavidPT

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I wish I was an artist like the guys in Bible Project. However here's a diagram I made of the Revelation 'sevens' a few years back.

revsequence.webp


They are definitely good computer graphic artists, yet at the same time, I saw it as a distraction since one might end up more focused on their artistic talents and tend to not focus more on what they were trying to teach, assuming what they are trying to teach is supposed to be the main focus..
 
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Douggg

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They are definitely good computer graphic artists, yet at the same time, I saw it as a distraction since one might end up more focused on their artistic talents and tend to not focus more on what they were trying to teach, assuming what they are trying to teach is supposed to be the main focus..
I was thinking the same thing.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Revelation 6-19 is the 70th week of Daniel 9.

Since the first 69 weeks are ended by Jesus's death on the cross, there is only one possible week left.
Please stop telling this blatant lie.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

It is NOT at the end of the 69th week that Messiah is cut off. It is some time AFTER the 69th week is over. Stop blatantly misrepresenting clear scripture.
 
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Douggg

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Please stop telling this blatant lie.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

It is NOT at the end of the 69th week that Messiah is cut off. It is some time AFTER the 69th week is over. Stop blatantly misrepresenting clear scripture.
69 weeks unto messiah - Jesus arriving in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah, John 12:12-15.

4 days later, Jesus was crucified, ending the 69th week.

Do you acknowledge that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, setting his glory among the nations, having just executed judgment on them in Ezekiel 39:17-20?

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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69 weeks unto messiah - Jesus arriving in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah, John 12:12-15.

4 days later, Jesus was crucified, ending the 69th week.
I told you to stop blatantly lying about what that scripture says. It says He is cut off AFTER the 69th week ends. You can't even bring yourself to acknowledge that. That's pathetic. If He wasn't cut off AFTER the 69th week then scripture wouldn't say that, but it does.

Everyone knows that the word "after" doesn't mean "at the end of". Stop trying to redefine words to fit your doctrine.
 
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eclipsenow

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Revelation 6-19 is the 70th week of Daniel 9.

Since the first 69 weeks are ended by Jesus's death on the cross, there is only one possible week left. A 7 year block of time, which in the middle of that 7 years the prince who shall come stops the daily sacrifice and abominations occur for the remainder of the week.

Which Revelation 6-19 have in them the 1260 days, the 42 months, and the time, times, half time.

Which Revelation 6-19 cannot be across a broad span of history.

When someone at the Bible Project acknowledges it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, let me know. Because the framework for the timeline of the final 70th week is in Ezekiel 39. But as it is, I haven't heard a single You Tube commentator recognize that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth.

The guys at Bible Project don't even know about it or else they would change the way they look at Revelation. There's the problem - unawareness.


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The new Covenant interprets the Old. We know this because John feels quite happy to jumble up ALL Daniel's empire 'beasts' into the one horrific beast. We know this because John is using the common symbols of his day to express the theological truths shown in his vision. We know this because the 7's are inside each other, not end-to-end as in Daniel's vision. Jesus interpreted Daniel's vision for his own purposes, and John doesn't even use the term 'abomination that causes desolation', so I'm not sure you have enough evidence there to just rip Daniel's vision out of context and whack it over Revelation like that.

Also, why ignore John's introduction to his own book?
John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-

  • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
  • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
  • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
  • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
  • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
  • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
 
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eclipsenow

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Please stop telling this blatant lie.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

It is NOT at the end of the 69th week that Messiah is cut off. It is some time AFTER the 69th week is over. Stop blatantly misrepresenting clear scripture.
To be fair - it's tough to read. What does it mean that it was in the middle? There are many different Reformed Amil readings of this passage and all commentaries acknowledge the difficulty with trying to time this literally to different things. Also, weird thought - I can't remember if it was mine (not a good sign!) or actually in a commentary I read - but what if it's not actual years but fractions of time - indicating not in what year - but what rough fraction of time stuff will happen? I don't have other instances of the Hebrews using time like this - but apocalyptic symbolism can mean different things. Anyway, the main problem I have with Douggg's reading is the way he rips this visio nout of context and shoves it OVER Revelation like John's own intentions for his book just don't matter. That's just like ripping different cooking ingredients out of their intended packages to bake your own cake recipe thank you very much - definitely not cooking according to the instructions on the packet!

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
 
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To be fair - it's tough to read.
Tough to read? That He was cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks are over is very clear and not tough to read at all. Other parts of Daniel are certainly "tough to read", but not that.

What does it mean that it was in the middle?
I'm not even talking about that. I'm only referring to when He was cut off in relation to the end of the first 69 weeks. My point is that it wasn't at the end of the 69th week. It was some time AFTER the end of the 69th week, which would place it during the 70th week. Do you disagree that He was cut off AFTER the end of the 69th week?
 
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Christian Gedge

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To be fair - it's tough to read. What does it mean that it was in the middle? There are many different Reformed Amil readings of this passage and all commentaries acknowledge the difficulty with trying to time this literally to different things. Also, weird thought - I can't remember if it was mine (not a good sign!) or actually in a commentary I read - but what if it's not actual years but fractions of time - indicating not in what year - but what rough fraction of time stuff will happen? I don't have other instances of the Hebrews using time like this

The 70 'weeks' were the Sabbatical cycles and the 'middle' of each week related to a calendar formula in the ancient Hebrew calendar. Please read chapter 3 of my book, The Atonement Clock.
 
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Douggg

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I told you to stop blatantly lying about what that scripture says. It says He is cut off AFTER the 69th week ends. You can't even bring yourself to acknowledge that. That's pathetic. If He wasn't cut off AFTER the 69th week then scripture wouldn't say that, but it does.

Everyone knows that the word "after" doesn't mean "at the end of". Stop trying to redefine words to fit your doctrine.
See this period "." ? The black dot, if we put it under a microscope, it has a left edge and a right edge.

You are arguing that right edge of the black dot is after the left edge of the black dot. And acting as if that was a meaningful factor.

On the scale of 483 years - 4 days equates to a period.

In addition, there are some years in the Jewish calendar system which have leap months. Which coincide with the passover week.

The 70th week is still unfulfilled, which is why there are the 7 years in Ezekiel 39, followed by the Armageddon judgement in v17-20, and Jesus Himself speaking in v21-29.
____________________________________________

What it is actually indicating with 69 weeks unto messiah, and after 69 weeks the messiah is cutoff. And then the prince who shall come confirms the covenant for 7 years (the 70th week). Is that there is a very, very short time between the messiah's arrival in Jerusalem and him being cutoff. Which we can read about in the new testament, in 20-20 hindsight.
 
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Douggg

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Anyway, the main problem I have with Douggg's reading is the way he rips this visio nout of context and shoves it OVER Revelation like John's own intentions for his book just don't matter. That's just like ripping different cooking ingredients out of their intended packages to bake your own cake recipe thank you very much - definitely not cooking according to the instructions on the packet!
The ingredients to a cake are in stated measured quantities.

In Revelation, the stated measured quantities are 1260 days, 42 months, and the time/times/half time... all elements of 7 years.

And Ezekiel 39 verifies that those are elements of the 7 years following Gog/Magog, by Jesus Himself speaking in v21-v29.
 
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eclipsenow

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The ingredients to a cake are in stated measured quantities. In Revelation, the stated measured quantities are 1260 days, 42 months, and the time/times/half time... all elements of 7 years.
First and foremost - just because someone is using Jewish number symbolism does not automatically mean they are continuing the same subject as a previous prophet. That's like saying because I am using English, I'm automatically writing love sonnets because that's what Shakespeare wrote.

Second - the vast majority of biblical scholarship sees Daniel as already fulfilled. Either in Jesus, or in Antiochus. I'm not qualified enough to cover that particular debate and I have friends on both sides of it. But the point is it is past tense - Daniel 9 is no longer prophecy but history.

And Ezekiel 39 verifies that those are elements of the 7 years following Gog/Magog, by Jesus Himself speaking in v21-v29.
Different book, different prophet, different subject - different NT quote reinterpreting the OT theme.

Basically you are confirming my impression that futurists have such a strong presupposition that EVERYTHING is about the antiChrist / AOD / future third temple desecration that you haven't stopped to ask who wrote what to whom, in what generation, and about what - precisely?

Oh let's just forget all that and lump it into my special timetable for the future. What could possibly go wrong?
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Douggg

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First and foremost - just because someone is using Jewish number symbolism does not automatically mean they are continuing the same subject as a previous prophet. That's like saying because I am using English, I'm automatically writing love sonnets because that's what Shakespeare wrote.
I am not understanding the point you are making.

The timeframes in Revelation, Daniel 9:27, and Ezekiel 39 validate each other.

Basically you are confirming my impression that futurists have such a strong presupposition that EVERYTHING is about the antiChrist / AOD / future third temple desecration that you haven't stopped to ask who wrote what to whom, in what generation, and about what - precisely?
I think the futurist position is that final 7 years preceding Jesus's return, marked by the splitting of the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14, have not happened yet.

Ezekiel 39 provides the infallible timeline frame work for the events that take place in the 7 years.
 
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