The "7 Church Ages" Prophecy

helmut

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One of my favorite authors was locked up because of crimes against the state run church. John Bunyan
I only know two works of him, The Pilgrim's Progress I read as a teenager (German edition, I don't know whether it was a translation, or a work edited for young readers), and Grace Abounding in English, in a university library.

I was impressed by a scene in Grace Abounding Grace to the chief of sinners, when Bunyan was visited by a clerk who tried to persuade him to give up his "obstinacy" with the reference to Romans 13:1ff. Bunyan replied that he obeyed the king by enduring the prison he was sentenced to, without any rebellion against it. But he would never obey to the point of being disobedient to Christ.
 
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I only know two works of him, The Pilgrim's Progress I read as a teenager (German edition, I don't know whether it was a translation, or a work edited for young readers), and Grace Abounding in English, in a university library.

I was impressed by a scene in Grace Abounding Grace to the chief of sinners, when Bunyan was visited by a clerk who tried to persuade him to give up his "obstinacy" with the reference to Romans 13:1ff. Bunyan replied that he obeyed the king by enduring the prison he was sentenced to, without any rebellion against it. But he would never obey to the point of being disobedient to Christ.
I read the complete works at the Virginia Tech Library and it was almost as I had the angels of God looking over me as I did...

https://virginiatech.on.worldcat.org/search?queryString=John Bunyan complete&databaseList=&clusterResults=false&stickyFacetsChecked=true&baseScope=sz:38864&groupVariantRecords=false&scope=sz:38864

The closest thing I would consider Philadelphian in Germany would be in the Moravian church. And their impact on John Wesley was profound...

The Moravians and John Wesley | Christian History Magazine
 
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helmut

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The closest thing I would consider Philadelphian in Germany would be in the Moravian church. And their impact on John Wesley was profound...
I'm not sure what kind of Philadelphians you mean, the Philadelphians on Wiki are rather different from the Moravians.

In Germany, they call themselves „Herrnhuter Bruedergemeine”. Herrnhut is the village founded by Zinzendorf to host the exiles from Moravia, Brüdergemeine is an old form of Brüdergemeinde ("church of brethren"), but that term is used for the Darbyists ("Plymouth brethren", in wider sense including "Open Brethren" as well).

As my parents did, I read the Daily watchwords („Herrnhuter Losungen”). I have a website with them as my Browser's starting web page.
 
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I'm not sure what kind of Philadelphians you mean, the Philadelphians on Wiki are rather different from the Moravians.

In Germany, they call themselves „Herrnhuter Bruedergemeine”. Herrnhut is the village founded by Zinzendorf to host the exiles from Moravia, Brüdergemeine is an old form of Brüdergemeinde ("church of brethren"), but that term is used for the Darbyists ("Plymouth brethren", in wider sense including "Open Brethren" as well).

As my parents did, I read the Daily watchwords („Herrnhuter Losungen”). I have a website with them as my Browser's starting web page.
I believe the Moravians became the Brethren church here in the US. The church of my likings went through the following transformations....

1. Moravian - John Wesley was highly influenced by the spirituality of the Moravian church
2. Methodist - A product of John Wesley
3. Pentecostal Holiness -What I am a member of now
4. Charismatic - So many churches are removing the denominational name.

What I call the ideal Philadelphia congregation is in the following video when we had a wonderfully spiritual minister as pastor....


As I have a liking towards these things I would love to learn more about the German Moravian movement.
 
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helmut

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I believe the Moravians became the Brethren church here in the US.
We are getting rather off-topic …

I'm not sure what you mean by "Brethren church". Darbyists originated in the UK, and they usually refuse to call themselves a church. No connection to Moravians.

What I call the ideal Philadelphia congregation is in the following video when we had a wonderfully spiritual minister as pastor....
I got it: Philadelphian was no denominational name, but your term for churches that are somewhat like Rev 3:7-13.

As I have a liking towards these things I would love to learn more about the German Moravian movement.
As to the origins, Wikipedia (here and there) is a good start. As to today: I'm no member, it is a small church and you don't hear much about them. The last contact I had with a Moravian was in the yearly prayer week of the Evangelical Alliance, it was rather superficial.

The Watchwards („Losungen”) are rather widespread. The booklet contains not only the original Moravian words, but also Verses for the week, the month, and the year, but these are taken from interdenominational committees or so. The watchword for 2022 is John 6:37b.
 
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rockytopva

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For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. - Titus 2:11-13

I have thought of my sisters family as a good Christian family... Until my last visit! I was talking at the dinner table about the evils of tattoos not knowing I had a nephew and niece had gotten them in private places. Then my brother in law starts defending them! I basically told him that I would not make a good minister in these Laodicean times!

We had an evangelist in the 1970's hold revivals and he stopped by the Baptist church I was going to at the time. He would pack the altar with crying penitents night after night and I had an invited friend go up to testify that he had never prayed so hard. I picked up a cassette labeled, "Worldliness or Godliness" and I made a YouTube video out of it...

 
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helmut

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I have thought of my sisters family as a good Christian family... Until my last visit! I was talking at the dinner table about the evils of tattoos not knowing I had a nephew and niece had gotten them in private places. Then my brother in law starts defending them! I basically told him that I would not make a good minister in these Laodicean times!
Well, Tattoos are not the ritual incursions mentioned in Lev 19:28. It is hard to find biblical evidence against them. In some countries (e.g. Egypt) Christians use tattoos (e.g. a cross) to mark themselves as believers, in an attempt to prevent forced „conversion” by Muslims.

You have a somewhat different knowledge (or understanding) than your brother-in-law, but that doesn't make him Laodicean!
 
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rockytopva

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I just returned from a Piedmont Camp meeting dinner in which the place looked the same as it did when the Methodist run it 150 years ago. It also has a creek that runs next to it that at one time was needed for water. It also has a building to eat and places to stay as well…

060-0500_Piedmont_Camp_Meeting_Grounds_HD_1989_Tabernacle_side_elevation_VLR_Online-scaled.jpg


This place looks like the old Cripple Creek camp meeting that took place in the same time frame. A George Clark Rankin and a David Sullins describes the place…

The Life of David Sullins
The Life of George Clark Rankin

Here are some of the rules to govern the Cripple Creek Camp meeting around 1823....
294477_8893346182f45c9e2a372654f63021f9.jpg


The document above contains the rules to governthe Cripple Creek camp meeting on the 12th day of September, 1823.

On the ninth rule it is stated, “No persons or persons are to occupy the stand except the preachers and the exhorters.” The Methodist in those days had a class of minister called exhorters. These so called “Exhorters” would encourage and help breathe life into the camp meeting of the day. And what importance they put on exhortation as the exhorter class had a place with the preachers and evangelists!

On the fourteenth rule it is stated that females sit on the left hand from the stand and the males on the right. This was stated also in David Sullins time as a way to keep order in the service.

Pictured below is Robert Sheffey, who was more of the exhorter than the preacher. It was said of him in The Life of George Clark Rankin and beginning on page 239...

I passed my examinations and that year I was sent to the Wytheville Station and Circuit. That was adjoining my former charge. We reached the old parsonage on the pike just out of Wytheville as Rev. B. W. S. Bishop moved out. Charley Bishop was then a little tow-headed boy. He is now the learned Regent of Southwestern University. The parsonage was an old two-and-a-half-story structure with nine rooms and it looked a little like Hawthorne's house with the seven gables. It was the lonesomest-looking old house I ever saw. There was no one there to meet us, for we had not notified anybody of the time we would arrive.

Think of taking a young bride to that sort of a mansion! But she was brave and showed no sign of disappointment. That first night we felt like two whortleberries in a Virginia tobacco wagonbed. We had room and to spare, but it was scantily furnished with specimens as antique as those in Noah's ark. But in a week or so we were invited out to spend the day with a good family, and when we went back we found the doors fastened just as we had left them, but when we entered a bedroom was elegantly furnished with everything modern and the parlor was in fine shape. The ladies had been there and done the work. How much does the preacher owe to the good women of the Church!

The circuit was a large one, comprising seventeen appointments. They were practically scattered all over the county. I preached every other day, and never less than twice and generally three times on Sunday.

I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.

The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.

One morning in the beginning of the service he was to preach and he called the people to prayer. He prayed loud and long and told the Lord just what sort of a meeting we were expecting and really exhorted the people as to their conduct on the grounds. Among other things, he said we wanted no horse- trading and then related that just before kneeling he had seen a man just outside the encampment looking into the mouth of a horse and he made such a peculiar sound as he described the incident that I lifted up my head to look at him, and he was holding his mouth open with his hands just as the man had done in looking into the horse's mouth! But he was a man of power and wrought well for the Church and for humanity.

The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.

He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.

He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.

It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.

294478_ce86a15c7b8c010a3dc68973d70ebf13.jpg
 
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rockytopva

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The Cripple Creek Camp Meeting, pictured below, where it was said, "The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher." - George Clark Rankin

In all my decades in studying the area I have never met the first soul who has ever heard of the place....

CrippleCreekGrounds.png
 
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rockytopva

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I also don't mind visiting churches of other denominations. Here is a church in Bora Bora, Polynesia I took during a cruise in which they amazingly left unlocked. "These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;" - Revelation 2:1. I believe Christ walks in the midst of all who call on his name.

BoraBora01.JPG
 
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So I'm a wretch, a sinner, and I fail all the time. I am not holy. I am not righteous. All my works are as dung before God.

Do I belong to Jesus or no?

When we stand before the Holy of Holies, Jesus Christ our Lord Himself, what justification do you or I have before that Throne?

-CryptoLutheran

I do agree with most of your criticisms of this idea, but I would respectfully point out that it is fairly mainstream even in Protestantism to reconcile Sola Fide with the Epistle of St. James by saying that among the faithful, the indwelling Holy Spirit enables good works. And of course the Orthodox and Roman Catholics regard good works as contributing to salvation, the Orthodox in the more coherent manner, in the form of Theosis.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I do agree with most of your criticisms of this idea, but I would respectfully point out that it is fairly mainstream even in Protestantism to reconcile Sola Fide with the Epistle of St. James by saying that among the faithful, the indwelling Holy Spirit enables good works. And of course the Orthodox and Roman Catholics regard good works as contributing to salvation, the Orthodox in the more coherent manner, in the form of Theosis.

Yes, Ephesians 2:10, we have been created for good works.

The New Obedience that pours forth from the regenerated, the renewed, and transformed person--the new man in Christ--that is alive by the Spirit; and the death of the old man. The mortification of our flesh. With eyes of faith toward Christ.

Good works pour out from faith, because God has taken claim over us: His stamp and seal that we are His. Our every weakness, every doubt, every pain, every injury is under the redeeming blood of the Savior who gave His life for us. Walking in the pledge and promise of God, walking in faith, turns these stone hearts to hearts of flesh: So that by His power, and not ours, we may love and serve.

What I am terrified of is that form of religion that teaches men that it is up to them to be holy so that they might gain the favor of God; for the favor of God is already upon us--all of us--because of Jesus.

Jesus suffered and died, and therefore I am forgiven and God declares me righteous.
Jesus rose from the dead, and therefore death and hell have no power over me.

In Him--and only Him--do I stand before the Father, not as a slave of death; but as a beloved child of God, adopted through His grace, having receive the inheritance of life and life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, Ephesians 2:10, we have been created for good works.

The New Obedience that pours forth from the regenerated, the renewed, and transformed person--the new man in Christ--that is alive by the Spirit; and the death of the old man. The mortification of our flesh. With eyes of faith toward Christ.

Good works pour out from faith, because God has taken claim over us: His stamp and seal that we are His. Our every weakness, every doubt, every pain, every injury is under the redeeming blood of the Savior who gave His life for us. Walking in the pledge and promise of God, walking in faith, turns these stone hearts to hearts of flesh: So that by His power, and not ours, we may love and serve.

What I am terrified of is that form of religion that teaches men that it is up to them to be holy so that they might gain the favor of God; for the favor of God is already upon us--all of us--because of Jesus.

Jesus suffered and died, and therefore I am forgiven and God declares me righteous.
Jesus rose from the dead, and therefore death and hell have no power over me.

In Him--and only Him--do I stand before the Father, not as a slave of death; but as a beloved child of God, adopted through His grace, having receive the inheritance of life and life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok I see where you are coming from. In short it would be fair to say you are terrified of Pelagianism?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ok I see where you are coming from. In short it would be fair to say you are terrified of Pelagianism?

That would be on the extreme end, but yes that is a concern.

On the less extreme end, it's simply about affirming confidence in the Gospel.

I believe the Christian can say, "I am baptized" and be confident in God's promises. They can say, "Christ died for me" and be confident in this truth.

When the emphasis is on personal ability, that it is up to me to maintain a certain status before God in order to be (and remain) acceptable to God, the inevitable destination is going to be despair. Despair that chokes and suffocates faith, that hides and obscures the face of God from us.

That was my experience. And I've been around long enough, and even just on these forums witnessed these very worries and dread driving our brothers and sisters into dark places. Visit the Request for Christian Advice board a few times and you can see this as a constant theme that shows up.

The truly good work does not ask, "Will this appease God?", as though God were a stern disapproving father or a tyrant demanding of tribute. Because the truly good work is borne of faith, faith which--with confidence--says, "I stand upon the righteousness of Jesus Christ, my rock and my fortress, all else is nought." So when the devil comes bellowing his lies and blowing smoke, he is reduced to nothing more than a buzzing mosquito to be swatted away with the word of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Andrewn

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What I am terrified of is that form of religion that teaches men that it is up to them to be holy so that they might gain the favor of God; for the favor of God is already upon us--all of us--because of Jesus.

Ok I see where you are coming from. In short it would be fair to say you are terrified of Pelagianism?
Whether one calls this Pelagianism or not, I believe that form of religion did indeed exist in Orthodoxy and Catholicism until certain ideas were adapted from the Reformation, especially from Wesley.
 
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Whether one calls this Pelagianism or not, I believe that form of religion did indeed exist in Orthodoxy and Catholicism until certain ideas were adapted from the Reformation, especially from Wesley.

I am pretty sure Wesley was influenced by the Eastern Orthodox and not vice versa. If we look at the history of Eastern Orthodox theology, they affirmed, before Wesley, that good works could be salvific, and they still affirm that. Also, alarmed by developments in the West, the Orthodox did introduce something of a doctrinal firewall in the form of the Acts of the Bethlehem Synod of Dositheus in 1672, when they took the unusual step of anathematizing Calvinism (usually, only issues within Orthodoxy get anathematized, but I think the rationale was the the supposed conversion of Patriarch Cyril Lucaris).
 
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I am pretty sure Wesley was influenced by the Eastern Orthodox and not vice versa.
Yes, Wesley was influenced by the Eastern Orthodox as well as the Reformers. Arminius, before Wesley, had been accused of adopting Catholic ideas. But the results that both Arminius and Wesley reached were kind of in-between: emphasizing both grace and works. This is the position that Orthodox and Catholics have gradually adopted. It was likely in their books, but was not emphasized in public teaching.

Also, alarmed by developments in the West, the Orthodox did introduce something of a doctrinal firewall in the form of the Acts of the Bethlehem Synod of Dositheus in 1672, when they took the unusual step of anathematizing Calvinism (usually, only issues within Orthodoxy get anathematized, but I think the rationale was the the supposed conversion of Patriarch Cyril Lucaris).
Yes, they saw the danger of Calvinism and anathematized it right away.
 
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Yes, Wesley was influenced by the Eastern Orthodox as well as the Reformers. Arminius, before Wesley, had been accused of adopting Catholic ideas. But the results that both Arminius and Wesley reached were kind of in-between: emphasizing both grace and works. This is the position that Orthodox and Catholics have gradually adopted. It was likely in their books, but was not emphasized in public teaching.


Yes, they saw the danger of Calvinism and anathematized it right away.

Ok, I see where you are coming from, however, the Orthodox did historically emphasize grace in the conversion process. Orthodox soteriology can be unfortunately obscure because it is based on St. John Cassian rather than St. Augustine of Hippo.
 
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helmut

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What I am terrified of is that form of religion that teaches men that it is up to them to be holy so that they might gain the favor of God; for the favor of God is already upon us--all of us--because of Jesus.

How do you understand Heb 12:14?
 
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How do you understand Heb 12:14?

"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

To live by faith. The holiness of faith in Christ, to pursue Christ, to endure and remain in Christ, by faith.

When we sinful men establish so-called "standards of holiness" ("Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" Colossians 2:21) to use as an obstacle for others, we become a stumbling block to faith, we preach false religion and lead others toward despair and faithlessness and away from true holiness. True holiness borne out of faith and repentance.

The Holy Spirit makes us holy, not by placing elaborate quizzes and then scoring us by how many points we earn; but by conforming us to Christ, by keeping us in Christ by faith. God's love shaping us, God's grace molding us, that we continue to run this race, fight this fight, and with eyes upon Jesus Christ the Author and the Finisher of our faith.

Holiness is not a state one achieves; it is the power of God to daily convert us, renew us, and strengthen us.

In baptism we have been made holy.
In the Lord's Supper we are made holy.
In the hearing of God's word, we are made holy.

And from this, Christ's commandment, "Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:37). That our works, our actions, our dispositions, etc might also become holy.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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