The "7 Church Ages" Prophecy

[rockytopva]

The "7 church ages" Prophecy. I have heard this prophecy started by "quacks" and agree that this can be true. Especially when such people make themselves the "angel" of the church age as if all knees should bow to them. My beliefs are that the churches came along as follows....

The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life
Angels - The current preacher to the congregation.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado? And... If you have a better interpretation please post your info! I dont mind for people to disagree with me and may end up learning a thing of two! I believe the churches came down as seven and each congregation is different in their generation!

 

[rockytopva]

The bible, especially Revelation, is written with much metaphor. I cannot believe one can study Revelation, and the bible, and see the same perspective as another fellow believer. You will agree and disagree on the interpretation of different passages...

John Bunyan was a great writer in metaphors/parables and he explains the use of them in his "The Barren Fig Tree" work (http://www.chapellib.../bun-barren.pdf):

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. - Luke 13:6-9

In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read.

First, The metaphors made use of.
Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors.

The metaphors in this parable are,
1. A certain man;
2. A vineyard;
3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless;
4. A dresser;
5. Three years;
6. Digging and dunging, &c.

The doctrine, or mystery, couched under these words is to show us what is like to become of a fruitless or formal professor. For,

1. By the man in the parable is meant God the Father (Luke 15:11).
2. By the vineyard, his church (Isa 5:7).
3. By the fig-tree, a professor.
4. By the dresser, the Lord Jesus.
5. By the fig-tree’s barrenness, the professor’s fruitlessness.
6. By the three years, the patience of God that for a time he extendeth to barren professors.
7. This calling to the dresser of the vineyard to cut it down, is to show the outcries of justice against fruitless professors.
8. The dresser’s interceding is to show how the Lord Jesus steps in, and takes hold of the head of his Father’s axe, to stop, or at least to defer, the present execution of a barren fig-tree.
9. The dresser’s desire to try to make the fig-tree fruitful, is to show you how unwilling he is that even a barren fig-tree should yet be barren, and perish.
10. His digging about it, and dunging of it, is to show his willingness to apply gospel helps to this barren professor, if haply he may be fruitful.
11. The supposition that the fig-tree may yet continue fruitless, is to show, that when Christ Jesus hath done all, there are some professors will abide barren and fruitless.
12. The determination upon this supposition, at last to cut it down, is a certain prediction of such professor’s unavoidable and eternal damnation.

But to take this parable into pieces, and to discourse more particularly, though with all brevity, upon all the parts thereof. ‘A certain MAN had a fig-tree planted in his vineyard.’ The MAN, I told you, is to present us with God the Father; by which similitude he is often set out in the New Testament. Observe then, that it is no new thing, if you find in God’s church barren fig-trees, fruitless professors; even as here you see is a tree, a fruitless tree, a fruitless fig-tree in the vineyard.

Fruit is not so easily brought forth as a profession is got into; it is easy for a man to clothe himself with a fair show in the flesh, to word it, and say, Be thou warmed and filled with the best. It is no hard thing to do these with other things; but to be fruitful, to bring forth fruit to God, this doth not every tree, no not every fig-tree that stands in the vineyard of God. Those words also, ‘Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away,’ assert the same thing (John 15:2). There are branches in Christ, in Christ’s body mystical, which is his church, his vineyard, that bear not fruit, wherefore the hand of God is to take them away: I looked for grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes, that is, no fruit at all that was acceptable with God (Isa 5:4). Again, ‘Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself,’ none to God; he is without fruit to God (Hosea 10:1). All these, with many more, show us the truth of the observation, and that God’s church may be cumbered with fruitless fig-trees, with barren professors.

 

[eleos1954]

The "7 church ages" Prophecy. I have heard this prophecy started by "quacks" and agree that this can be true. Especially when such people make themselves the "angel" of the church age as if all knees should bow to them. My beliefs are that the churches came along as follows....

The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life
Angels - The current preacher to the congregation.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado? And... If you have a better interpretation please post your info! I dont mind for people to disagree with me and may end up learning a thing of two! I believe the churches came down as seven and each congregation is different in their generation!

The seven churches are not written just to a certain church in a certain age. The seven churches represent a cycle that a church may go through.

Indeed when the letters were written at that time in history the "state" of the churches were in the "condition" as stated in His Word .... however ... the "condition" of the churches going forward until Jesus returns are in one or more of the same kind of condition.

Ecclesiastes 1:9

King James Bible
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

 

[Juan777]

The late Chuck Missler did a great treatment on the subject of the 7 churches. He said the 7 churches represents 7 stages within church history.

The first one would be the Early church at some point where they were getting more doctrinally and scripturally literate but losing the passion of the first love or what drew them to the Lord in the first place. This makes sense since the Bible as we know it, was not known very much at the time, and Paul's and others contribution to what we have more accurate doctrine knowledge makes for a better theological understanding/debate on the issues.

The second church would be the persecuted church. This would be when the pagan Roman caesars heavily persecuted the church. Jesus only had good things to say about them, especially if they did not compromise their testimony to live a little longer in this life.

The third church is the married church (Pergamos). This is when the Roman Empire stopped persecuting the Christians, made Christianity a State Religion (however, true Christians were eventually persecuted again as being heretics to that new false Christian religion). As persecution did not succeed in wiping out the church, the devil tried infiltration and corruption of doctrine using the State as a mechanism.

The fourth church Thytira, is representing the Roman Catholic church, especially during it's dominant part of history in the Middle Ages. This church would survive into the Great Tribulation.

The fiftth church followed the Protestant reformation, under Martin Luther and the printing press, and then evolving various Protestant sects. They started out with missionary zeal and freedom from the oppressive Roman Catholic church (ie at THAT time, which was way more oppressive than it's current manifestation). These line of mainline Pentecostal churches eventually became dead-shells of their former shelves as sin and corruption entered into the ranks. It characterizes most movements that started with zeal eventually losing the flame.

The sixth church is known as church of brotherly love, Philadelphia, and is the missionary church and revival movements that occurred at the turn of the last century when there was a great move of God all over the place, crusades, evangelists like Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, Azuza Street, etc.... This is between the established mainline Protestant churches and the modern church age.

Finally, the seventh church, is the modern Lukewarm church age. Not many people can dispute that we are in this age right now, so I'm not going to discuss much about it and end my attempts at paraphrasing that Bible teacher here.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There's no biblical basis for a "7 church ages". The seven churches of the Apocalypse were real churches, and are not ages. They aren't called ages, there is nothing that hints to them being ages.

To get this idea of "ages" requires closing your Bible, putting it away on the shelf, and then just making it up in your own head.

As such there's nothing more to discuss. It's like if someone were to claim that the seven churches refer to seven zodiac signs, or seven kinds of fish, or seven pizza toppings.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[helmut]

The "7 church ages" Prophecy.

This is one of several possibilities to read the seven messages in Re 1-3.

Much in the messages is an allusion to the city the message is sent to. The "throne of Satan" refers either to the famous Pergamon altar, or to the fist emperor worship place in the "Asia" province. After the earthquake which destroyed Colossae completely, Rome offered help to every city that was struck by this catastrophe. Laodicea replied to Rome as in Rev 3:17; and there is also an allusion to the hot and cold springs near that town …

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

I think every such explanation is influenced by the theological or ecclesiastical conviction of the one explaining it.

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life
Angels - The current preacher to the congregation.

There are seven stars, seven candlesticks, seven seals, seven angels. But the seals are not part of Rev 1-3. This is a quite different picture.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

In heaven (see Rev 4:1) there is a document, sealed with seven seals, so it is a very important document. Since you cannot read what is sealed inside, there is a short description of the content written on the outside. Typically such documents are juridical (as every reader in the 1st century would know): It will be opened when the decree (or whatsoever is inside) will be set in effect.
They are looking for somewhat who is worthy to open it - so it is the certificate of appointment for a very important office that cannot be filled by everyone. It appears that only one person (the lion of Juda, i.e. the lamb of God) can fill out this office. He will open the document, and when the last seal is open, his office will begin.

Up to this the interpretation is straightforward (and clear to any contemporary reader). But who is that lion/lamb? Well, Christians should know, of course - an outsider my be confused (the book was written in persecution time, so some "encoding" was needed). And as to the office - it is the son of man:

Dan 7:13 ‘In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

There is no direct connection to the seven churches etc. of chapter 1-3. Rather a sort of link to the seven trumpets in another picture in that book.

 

[Sheila Davis]

The "7 church ages" Prophecy. I have heard this prophecy started by "quacks" and agree that this can be true. Especially when such people make themselves the "angel" of the church age as if all knees should bow to them. My beliefs are that the churches came along as follows....

The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life
Angels - The current preacher to the congregation.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado? And... If you have a better interpretation please post your info! I dont mind for people to disagree with me and may end up learning a thing of two! I believe the churches came down as seven and each congregation is different in their generation!

I do agree that all churches that are active today and throughout the existence of the churches, fall up under one of the seven churches.
I've never done a study on the churches and their theologies to even begin to place any of them under any of the seven churches of Revelations.
I can only say only two out of the seven had a fair report. And I wonder what churches of today actually stand up under those two.
I cannot disagree with your interpretations.

 

[Juan777]

There's no biblical basis for a "7 church ages". The seven churches of the Apocalypse were real churches, and are not ages. They aren't called ages, there is nothing that hints to them being ages.

There are normally prophetic meanings in scripture that bring the scripture beyond the scope of it's current use and contains double meanings.

If you look at it, all of the churches ultimately died out and are in ruins in a Muslim country today, even the ones that Jesus spoke favorably about that did not lose their candlestick. If it literally applied, then those at least two of those churches would still be there today and thriving. Obviously there is a prophetic and practical (personal) meaning that transcends time otherwise saying that one church will go through the tribulation and the other will not is meaningless if they are all tourist attraction ruins today.

 

[helmut]

There are normally prophetic meanings in scripture that bring the scripture beyond the scope of it's current use and contains double meanings.

That's true.
The primary meaning was a message to the then churches. And there is a wider, secondary meaning for all churches.

But is this a meaning in the form "one church, one area"? Or do all of these 7 messages contain information we should not miss?
An explanation of the sort "oh, that letter is for Catholics, not for us" is certainly not the full scope of the prophetic meaning. No, this letter is certainly for us also, at least as a warning we should carefully avoid to become like that church [and it is self-evident that "catholic" is just an example, you may fill in whatever denomination you think appropriate, the »cited« sentence will still be wrong].

otherwise saying that one church will go through the tribulation and the other will not is meaningless

As to this, the revelation is quite clear: The believers out of the Jews will be "sealed" (Rev 7:1-8) and protected, and the virgin Jerusalem will find a safe place (Rev 12:16), while the believers out of the nations will undergo the tribulation (Rev 7:9-17) since the devil will aim at them (Rev 12:17, and all that follows).

As to Rev 3:10, the word can also mean a temptation, i.e. this church will not be tempted to agree to the beast, as the whole world will do.

 

[rockytopva]

I have went ahead and liked these posts. It is important for me to allow others to interpret the metaphors to their own hearts liking. If the Lord Jesus was trying to talk to the churches in time and generation he said a whole lot in just a few words. As far as history Foxes Book of Martyrs has the church persecutions as ten. If this indeed the Smyrnaen Church age then...

The Smyrnaean Church age persecution became great with the Roman Emperor Nero burning down Rome and accusing the Christians of doing it. Smyrna in the Greek means “Myrrh,” in which the Smyrnaean martyrs represented the most pure form of Christianity of all the church ages. The martyred crowns were many as the Smyrnaean church age progressed.

Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
Time Persecutor Description
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD

 

[ViaCrucis]

There are normally prophetic meanings in scripture that bring the scripture beyond the scope of it's current use and contains double meanings.

If you look at it, all of the churches ultimately died out and are in ruins in a Muslim country today, even the ones that Jesus spoke favorably about that did not lose their candlestick. If it literally applied, then those at least two of those churches would still be there today and thriving. Obviously there is a prophetic and practical (personal) meaning that transcends time otherwise saying that one church will go through the tribulation and the other will not is meaningless if they are all tourist attraction ruins today.

Since the Apocalypse is addressed to those seven churches, that's how it is to be read. Just as we read Paul's letters as directed to the churches after which they are named: Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Colossians, etc.

This is the Apocalypse of St. John, written to the seven churches in Asia. It is addressed to them, to real Christian communities which lived in the late first century. In the same way that the letter to the Ephesians was written to the Church of Ephesus, or the letter to the Romans was written to the Church of Rome. While the Apocalypse is, as by its name would suggest, an apocalyptic work full of visions and graphic imagery (for those who may not know the other name for the book, the Revelation, is simply a translation of its original name, as apokalypsis in Greek means "unveiling" aka "revelation"); it is still a work written by an author with a target audience, and thus it must be read in context.

It's not a Rorschach inkblot test. There was really a man named John, on a real island called Patmos, and there were real Christians--real churches--in these seven cities located in what used to be the Roman province of Asia in what is today southwestern Turkey. The things which are written to them are actually things that were going on at the time. There really were heretics like the Nicolaitans and a false teacher called "Jezebel" (probably not her real name, but given that name on purpose). The Christians in Laodicea really were rather affluent and doing well for themselves compared to their brothers and sisters elsewhere who were dealing with persecution and other forms of suffering, and in their affluence had become complacent--and so Jesus is really, actually, telling them that they need to have a fire lit under their feet and start taking things seriously or He will spit them out like lukewarm water. John really did receive visions which he wrote down, for them; but which we can now benefit from just like we benefit from all of Scripture.

Because, and this is something we need to always remember. The books of the Bible were not written to us. But because these are not mere human works, but divinely inspired works, they are for us. As St. Paul says, "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial".

So what does what St. John saw and wrote down for the seven churches in Asia have that is beneficial for us? What does it tell us today, and how can we benefit from its reading and hearing? That we may be properly instructed, rebuked, etc in the things of Jesus Christ?

Yes, the Revelation has a lot of sensational things written. But don't be sensationalized--stop, read, listen, study and learn the Scriptures.

Had this been intended to speak of seven ages, then there would be something in the text. It does not have to be explicit, it can be implicit. But there should be something.

Can anyone here provide an exegetical reason to interpret this as having to do with "seven ages". Literally anything, anything at all. Just something more what you personally feel, think, or have heard others say. Is there something in the text itself? Anything at all?

Please, I ask that no one just respond back in a reactionary way. I'm not here to attack anyone.

I want people to really stop and think. Don't just accept what I'm saying, and don't just reject what I'm saying. Read Scripture, study it, and be willing to ask yourself the hard questions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rockytopva]

Those of the sardisesn church age, as Sardis is a gem, are very set in their beliefs and will dispute this doctrine every time. Especially as I have read things such as this....

"That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death." -Martin Luther

"My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it. The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs." - Martin Luther from the book "On the Jews and their Lies"

"Pure devilry is urging on the peasants…. Therefore let all who are able, mow them down, slaughter and stab them, openly or in secret, and remember that there is nothing more poisonous, noxious and utterly devilish than a rebel. You must kill him as you would a mad dog!" -Martin Luther

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin, after the death of Michael Servetus

 

[Juan777]

Those of the sardisesn church age, as Sardis is a gem, are very set in their beliefs and will dispute this doctrine every time. Especially as I have read things such as this....

"That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death." -Martin Luther

"My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it. The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs." - Martin Luther from the book "On the Jews and their Lies"

Its hard to compare Sardis and Laodicean churches. Sardis has a reputation of a church that's alive, but is dead (or near dead), it's fallen asleep and Jesus said He's coming like a thief in the night, while Laodiceans are just complacently happy? They both sound similar. Was Sardis just poorer but got mired in sin? I'm just curious about what differentiates one from the other in the Lord's rebuke?

 

[rockytopva]

Its hard to compare Sardis and Laodicean churches. Sardis has a reputation of a church that's alive, but is dead (or near dead), it's fallen asleep and Jesus said He's coming like a thief in the night, while Laodiceans are just complacently happy? They both sound similar. Was Sardis just poorer but got mired in sin? I'm just curious about what differentiates one from the other in the Lord's rebuke?

I have a feeling I would have met my ends in a very cruel way if I had been born in Sardisean times. Remember John Bunyan, author of the Pilgrim's Progress, spent half his life in prison for bucking the Anglican church!

 

[Juan777]

I have a feeling I would have met my ends in a very cruel way if I had been born in Sardisean times. Remember John Bunyan, author of the Pilgrim's Progress, spent half his life in prison for bucking the Anglican church!

The churches can be the type of Christian that you are. There are 7 types of Christians that represent the seven churches. So my references are more the type of Christian lifestyle in the previous post.

A Sardis Christian sounds like the type of Christian that has secret sin or are toying with sin in their lives or are distracted but were on the straight and narrow before, etc......

 

[ViaCrucis]

The churches can be the type of Christian that you are. There are 7 types of Christians that represent the seven churches. So my references are more the type of Christian lifestyle in the previous post.

A Sardis Christian sounds like the type of Christian that has secret sin or are toying with sin in their lives or are distracted but were on the straight and narrow before, etc......

So you mean literally every Christian that ever lived?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rockytopva]

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3:6

It is so important that we have the Holy Spirit inside of us leading us “into all truth”

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. -John 16:13

If you have a revelation….

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. - 1 Corinthians 14:29

If prophets were not sometimes in error why would we need another to judge? In presenting this material l have tried to respect the others. But… I would say that the Sardisean were so grounded in church doctrine that they would force others to join their congregation with threats of persecution. There was good reason for America to build a wall between church and state! The Sardisean were not lukewarm in doctrine!

 

[helmut]

Since the Apocalypse is addressed to those seven churches, that's how it is to be read. Just as we read Paul's letters as directed to the churches after which they are named: Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Colossians, etc.

This is not enough, but you know it and say it later:

The books of the Bible were not written to us. But because these are not mere human works, but divinely inspired works, they are for us. As St. Paul says, "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial".

Emphasis added.

As to the visions in Revelation, I think they are primarily for the last generation, and only in a secondary manner for the then churches. The beast did not come in their times, nor did Jesus return then. But in the times since this vision was recorded, there were many beast-like men and states, beginning with emperor worship in Rom, or later Louis XIV, or Hitler, and in the end will come the beast which will fulfill this prophecy. And in almost any time we have seen churches that went whoring, "lying in bed" with the mighty rulers ("kings") and the capitalists (or "the merchants of the earth", Rev 18:3), but the great harlot Babylon has not yet emerged.

As to the messages to the seven churches, I'm close to you: They are written to the seven churches in the Asia about 100 AD. And we should look how to apply them to us.

One indication is: many features named are features of the whole town, not just the church. This points to a layer of meanung which goes beyond these local churches. In may extend up to our time …

Can anyone here provide an exegetical reason to interpret this as having to do with "seven ages". Literally anything, anything at all. Just something more what you personally feel, think, or have heard others say. Is there something in the text itself? Anything at all?

Good question. The only reason I know is tradition: They have been interpreted often in many times as a guide to church history.

But as I said in another post, I am as sure as sure this is only one way to look at them, and we should by no means neglect the other perspectives. The context you insisted on, of course, also the seven churches as paradigmatic examples for different kinds or stages/statuses/… of a church, and maybe other pespectives I'm not aware of.

 

[helmut]

The churches can be the type of Christian that you are.

We should not forget the messages were sent not to individuals, but to (local) churches.

 

[rockytopva]

I must say the established churches of what I would call of the Thyatirean and Sardisean era, regarding doctrine, like Fonzie, would have a hard time uttering these words...

(Fun little two minute video)