The "7 Church Ages" Prophecy

[helmut]

Its hard to compare Sardis and Laodicean churches.

When I was young, Korea had the reputation of a country with a living, fast-growing church.
I later married a Korean, visited Korea and got some insights that were rather disappointing. Later I read an article that pointed out the church growth ended in 1960, when especially protestant Christians were indifferent in the protests against the dictator Syngman Rhee (or "I Seung Man" in standard transcription) - he was a professing Christian, but turned into a dictator, and the Christians were associated with him in the public opinion.
So the Korean church went from a persecuted church (under the Japanese rule) into a "living" church which was too close to the autocratic leader of the state, and then into a church which made no progress at all while being famous as a living church.
Maybe it is unfair to say the Korean church is spiritually dead (there are also some revivals in some branches), but it would be definitely unfair to call it lukewarm like Laodecia.

 

[rockytopva]

There are four churches that influenced my life....

1. Catholic - My dad was at one time a Franciscan Monk and talked about it all the time.
2. Baptist - A Baptist church bus driver was most effectual to the point the whole family became Baptist.
3. Pentecostal Holiness - I had wonderful experiences here as a young adult
4. Charismatic - I am currently going to the local Charismatic church

In the Pentecostal Holiness church

1. Revival - Our minister's choice of evangelist was excellent as he at one time was into evangelism.
2. People - All seemed sanctified with wonderful love, warmth, joy, and Spirit.
3. Church - Beautiful church sanctuary with a great young peoples ministry.

That was until they opened up the mountain in front of the church for real estate development. You could buy 5 acres of land in the 1980's for $20,000 an acre. It seemed after that to come to a place of arrival included two cars, a garage, and a nice home on the mountain. I have also noticed the old Baptist church I attended have split from the GARBC to have become Independent Baptist. I worry that the lack of doctrine of the Charismatic church I now attend will invite sinful things and the leader there has already announced he is single again (not knowing what all that means). This all seems to me like issues of the Laodicean church age.

Pictured: The Pentecostal Holiness church (I am still a member of) back in the times of the Philadelphian Church Age...

 

[Juan777]

So you mean literally every Christian that ever lived?

-CryptoLutheran

There are more direct verses elsewhere in the bible. Its more likely these verses add more nuance and conviction to what is already mentioned elsewhere.

 

[Juan777]

We should not forget the messages were sent not to individuals, but to (local) churches.

Of course, but it does not lessen the impact. Let he/she who has an ear let him/her hear what the Spirit is saying. Jesus technically spoke to His disciples in Matthew 5, not to crowds around Him, so that only applied to His immediate disciples?

 

[ViaCrucis]

There are more direct verses elsewhere in the bible. Its more likely these verses add more nuance and conviction to what is already mentioned elsewhere.

Every Christian is a sinner. Every Christian is a wretched sinner that sins. Romans chapter 7 clearly describes the struggle between the old man and the new man. Simul iustus et peccator, both saints and sinners.

It is only by the grace of God that we are saved, because of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Juan777]

Every Christian is a sinner. Every Christian is a wretched sinner that sins. Romans chapter 7 clearly describes the struggle between the old man and the new man. Simul iustus et peccator, both saints and sinners.

It is only by the grace of God that we are saved, because of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

Why does Jesus look at works in the seven churches of revelation then? He did not find the Sardis' work perfect before God because the Sardis church had sinners that made the work imperfect and defiled their garments (google search what I just wrote in bold and read it in the bible yourself!) Unlike the other churches where the works were different.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why does Jesus look at works in the seven churches of revelation then? He did not find the Sardis' work perfect before God because the Sardis church had sinners that made the work imperfect and defiled their garments (google search what I just wrote in bold and read it in the bible yourself!) Unlike the other churches where the works were different.

Wait, are you actually maintaining that one is saved by their works?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Juan777]

Wait, are you actually maintaining that one is saved by their works?

-CryptoLutheran

.No, by faith, which are validated by works. Works that are not "perfect" before God means the works do not validate that saving faith happened. Either case it is what Jesus is looking at with the seven churches, to address the Elephant in the room.

 

[helmut]

Of course, but it does not lessen the impact. Let he/she who has an ear let him/her hear what the Spirit is saying.

There are issues that cannot apply to individuals. E.g. teaching: A church may tolerate a teaching as "heterodox", but Jesus calls it heresy and rebukes the church for tolerating it (2:14-15), instead of throwing out the false teachers.

A message to a church has an impact to the members of that church, of course. But it is a verdict on the behavior of a community (this church): How they interact to each other, what their service looks like, and so on …

Jesus technically spoke to His disciples in Matthew 5, not to crowds around Him, so that only applied to His immediate disciples?

This is an argument against sorting the seven churches into eras, denomination or anything like that.

 

[ViaCrucis]

.No, by faith, which are validated by works. Works that are not "perfect" before God means the works do not validate that saving faith happened. Either case it is what Jesus is looking at with the seven churches, to address the Elephant in the room.

So I'm a wretch, a sinner, and I fail all the time. I am not holy. I am not righteous. All my works are as dung before God.

Do I belong to Jesus or no?

When we stand before the Holy of Holies, Jesus Christ our Lord Himself, what justification do you or I have before that Throne?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rockytopva]

I believe this prophecy justifies the seven movements of Christianity...

Messianic
Persecuted
Orthodox
Catholic
Protestant
Anabaptist
Charismatic

And attempts to speak to them in time. Also, noting the differences, few would agree with this interpretation. I would say to all who profess Jesus as the Christ...He walks in the midst of all of us!

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks. - Revelation 2:1

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

 

[Juan777]

So I'm a wretch, a sinner, and I fail all the time. I am not holy. I am not righteous. All my works are as dung before God.

Do I belong to Jesus or no?

When we stand before the Holy of Holies, Jesus Christ our Lord Himself, what justification do you or I have before that Throne?

-CryptoLutheran

That describes your works before you are saved. It is agreed that is how your works are before coming to faith. Once you are born again then works that are inspired by the Spirit who puts godly desires in your heart are now acceptable to God and validate that you had saving faith. People stop at eph 2:9 but fail to read the rest of the chapter that says God has called us do works. Paul also says let us not be weary with our works as we will receive reward if we faint not. That does not portray the same type of works you are talkijg about which characterizes the unbelieving world apart frok Jesus.

The bible also lists works of the flesh in 1 Cor 6, and Gal 5. This is to contrast with the type of works I am talking about. Works of the flesh would put into doubt if you are saved if any of those works characterize your life. Worka of the Spirit are the opposite as they validate rather than cause doubt.

 

[helmut]

I believe this prophecy justifies the seven movements of Christianity...
Messianic
Persecuted
Orthodox
Catholic
Protestant
Anabaptist
Charismatic

»Persecuted« is no "movement". Every movement you listed can be persecuted, and in fact has been or is persecuted in some time or country.

I would say to all who profess Jesus as the Christ...He walks in the midst of all of us!

In the midst of all movements and churches that belong to him.

 

[rockytopva]

»Persecuted« is no "movement". Every movement you listed can be persecuted, and in fact has been or is persecuted in some time or country.

In the midst of all movements and churches that belong to him.

Especially the Roman persecution which I believe ended with Constantine. Constantine was a pagan monotheist, a devotee of the sun god Sol Invictus, the unconquered sun. However before the Milvian Bridge battle he and his army saw a cross of light in the sky above the sun with words in Greek that are generally translated into Latin as In hoc signo vinces (‘In this sign conquer’). That night Constantine had a dream in which Christ told him he should use the sign of the cross against his enemies. He was so impressed that he had the Christian symbol marked on his soldiers’ shields and when the Milvian Bridge battle gave him an overwhelming victory he attributed it to the god of the Christians. - The Battle of the Milvian Bridge | History Today

 

[helmut]

Especially the Roman persecution which I believe ended with Constantine.

I suppose you refer to the period of about 300 years, with some persecution here and there from time to time. Only at the end (Diokletian) there was a severe universal persecution all over the empire. The persecution of believers by the inquisition lasted longer and was, in the mean, harder …
Do you know that more than 150 Million Christians are persecuted today? According to the definition of Open Doors, the number is even more than twice as high.

 

[rockytopva]

I suppose you refer to the period of about 300 years, with some persecution here and there from time to time. Only at the end (Diokletian) there was a severe universal persecution all over the empire. The persecution of believers by the inquisition lasted longer and was, in the mean, harder …
Do you know that more than 150 Million Christians are persecuted today? According to the definition of Open Doors, the number is even more than twice as high.

It was told Daniel.... "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." - Daniel 12:13. It may have been better to have called these the, "Seven lots of Christianity." In which, you are correct, there are many persecuted these days, especially in communist and Hindu countries.

 

[rockytopva]

I also wonder if the end of days, in which we should all stand in our lots, are in the coming decades, in which, quoting Isaac Newton...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

I believe, then, the 2060 prophecy as closest, noting room for error as in Newton's quote. But... My goodness... 2060 is a lot closer than it was when Isaac Newton uttered these words 300 years ago!

 

[helmut]

It was told Daniel.... "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." - Daniel 12:13. It may have been better to have called these the, "Seven lots of Christianity." In which, you are correct, there are many persecuted these days, especially in communist and Hindu countries.

There is no real communist country left. China is a almost capitalist totalitarian state, North Korea is outright fascist (almost as bad as Nazi Germany, the main difference is they do not try to exterminate the Jews), almost every other former communist country is post-communist by now (Russia as the most famous one, and this is also fascist, somewhat milder dictatorship than China).
In the current watch list from Open doors, North Korea is #2, China is #17, Hindu India is #10, Hindu Nepal is #48.

In the top range, most countries are Muslim (#1 Afghanistan, #3 Somalia, #4 Libya, #5 Yemen, #6 Nigeria [regional persecution by Muslim radicals], #8 Pakistan, #9 Iran …). The first non-Muslim country not yet mentioned is #19 Vietnam (post-communist)!

There are border-cases, you may tell Nigeria one, since almost half of the population is Christian (by name), another is #21 Uzbekistan, with a post-communist dictator, so a non-Muslim persecution by the government and a Muslim persecution by the population (family, clan, …).

My source is the full report on the watch list (German version, I have not found an English version on the OD website), you may visit World Watch List 2022 · Serving Persecuted Christian's Worldwide and than click to country informations to get the details (the PDF is a more handy way to get them, but it seems to be unavailable in English?).

 

[helmut]

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

I cannot follow Newton. The 1260 days were fulfilled literally in the first fulfillment of Daniels prophecies, 2nd century BC. AD 800 is a random date, you can easily find other dates that fill the description of crowning.

And last but by no means least: An explanation which says: »Our Lord will not come soon« is the contrary of what Jesus expects from us.

If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s

I can't see why it should be so long before coming. The virgins wait (and sleep! Mt 25:5), and when the bridegroom comes, they went to meet him. So the rapture will be on the very day when Jesus comes back visibly and smashes the beast (Rev 19:14).

 

[rockytopva]

One of my favorite authors was locked up because of crimes against the state run church. John Bunyan would go on to write many classics even though he was spending the prime of his life in jail. Some of my favorites are...

1. Grace Abounding
2. The Pilgrim's Progress
3. The Life and Death of Mr Badman
4. The Holy War
5. An Exposition into the First Ten Chapters of Genesis

The Pilgrim's Progress has been translated into more than 200 languages and never been out of print. If I could go back in time and chat I would tell him that he was paving the way for the great Philadelphian church age and his works would be blessed.

As a child Bunyan learned his father's trade of tinker and was given some schooling, When Bunyan was 16 he entered service and we have no records of him rising above the rank of Private. Bunyan's army service provided him with a knowledge of military language which he then used in his book The Holy War, and also exposed him to the ideas of the various religious sects and radical groups. It was in such settings that caused him to excel as a writer. At the instigation of members of nonconformist congregations Bunyan began to preach, both in the church and to groups of people in the surrounding countryside. He would of probably been though of by the state church as an uneducated nut and wind up in jail as a protection against society.