The 4 Beasts & the 4 Horsemen.

[Davy]

A kingdom has a king. Worshiping the king is, in the language of revelation, worshiping the kingdom.

Afraid not. The Biblical pattern we are given is the historical king of Babylon involving direct worship of the golden image of Nebuchadnezzar himself. THAT... is what Daniel and his fellows refused to bow to at the call to worship (Daniel 3). The final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 is represented by the 70 years captivity period of the Jews by the king of Babylon.

And your somewhat hatred of Trump by trying to associate worship of the beast king idea with him is noted, and is false, since Trump is one of the best U.S. Presidents we've ever had, and is fulfilling the historical role of Jehu in the Old Testament.

 

[Davy]

I don't know what GWT is, but I read in the Bible that the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the fire 1000 years before Satan will enter there. So this point does not prove but rather contradicts your "role" theory. The two beasts are not just roles of Satan, but persons that are not Satan himself.
....

It's actually what YOU say that is a contradiction, because to believe that the roles of the beast and false prophet are flesh-born men would mean the GWT (Great White Throne Judgment) happens before... the start of the 1,000 years reign.

So be careful of your attempt at rebuke, which was without substance, just because what I say upsets your little apple cart of men's traditions you're following.

And I'll say it again. IF... one believes the beast and false prophet roles are flesh-born men, then that is to say God's GWT Judgment happens on the day of Christ's coming to end this PRESENT world time. That simply because we are shown at the end of Rev.19 that the beast and false prophet go into the "lake of fire" when Jesus comes on a white horse (to end this present world).

 

[Davy]

The 4 names of Satan are - the great dragon, the serpent of old, the devil and Satan. (Rev. 12: 9)

And yes we know that Satan will have a counterfeit trinity.

He's got a lot more names than that.

And no, men's idea of a counterfeit trinity does NOT define the various roles that Satan will play for the end of this world.

 

[Davy]

Some annotations:

The Greek does not use the word "war", and the terms seem to indicate that is was not a fight with weapons, but rather a juridical "fight".

That's strange, because my Greek Interlinear shows exactly the idea of WAR in the Revelation 12:7 verse. It is Strong's no. 4171, Greek polemos for those who want to look it up. It is translated as war in 17 places in the KJV New Testament.

No, it is theb other way round. Because Jesus went to heaven, Satan was driven out.

You obviously aren't even taking the time to read the actual Rev.12:8-11 Scripture. You'll never get the context without keeping to the flow of those verses.

Rev.12:7 -- Satan (dragon) cast out of heaven by the WAR with Archangel Michael.
Rev.12:8 -- no more place found in heaven for him (Satan) and his angels.
Rev.12:9 -- Satan cast out with his angels.
Rev.12:10 -- said IN HEAVEN, Salvation and kingdom of God, and the Power of Christ has come because... the accuser is cast down. That casting down did not happen of old, nor did it happen when Jesus died on the cross.
Rev.12:11 -- they overcame him (Satan) by the Blood of The Lamb. Christ's Saints of the 5th Seal that are delivered up to give a Testimony at the end of this world.

And all that = the very end of this world, not back in history. That's the context there.

Moreover, there are only TWO different dimensions of existence written of in all of God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one where The Father and The Son dwell, and His angels, and also where Satan's pit of hell is where the wicked dead are. When Satan and his angels are cast OUT of the heavenly, there is ONLY one other place they can appear.

And you do believe God's Word as written don't you, about the ability of angels to appear here on earth with the image of man???

Gen 19:1-2
19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
KJV

Gen 19:4-5
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."
KJV

Heb 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
KJV

Rev 17 also tells us the seven kings will follow one another, it is no "collective leadership". The 8th king will be one of the seven. This links to "has been, was nor, is now".

You are having that context problem again, not staying in the flow of the Chapter. When you get to this verse in Rev.17 about the idea of kings, what relation does it have with what was previously written in that Chapter?

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

I still do not understand how you can mention the verses that show that the first beast is not Satan, and then go on to say it (he) is Satan himself.

You are confused. I never said Satan is the 1st beast in ANY capacity. You no doubt have been listening to men's doctrines about Rev.13:1 so long that you cannot grasp how that is about the idea of a kingdom, a system, and not the Antichrist himself. Rev.13 defines 2 different beast concepts, a beast kingdom, and then a beast king. That's all. It's not the pronouns that define it. It's what each beast contains.

Rev.17 reveals this also. The "seven heads" are "seven mountains" per verse 9. Are we to think the Antichrist, a person, will have seven mountains? Does that really describe a person?? No, of course not. You simply are not thinking, but men's doctrines have blinded you.

Likewise with the ten horns which we are told are ten kings? Is that about the Antichrist person, i.e., the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward that is to come doing great wonders and miracles? No, of course not. The ten kings will serve him, as the Antichrist is the "little horn" role of the Book of Daniel. And there God's Word tells us the "little horn" comes up among the ten horns, and subdues 3 of the ten. Right there in Rev.17 then, is another description of the Dan.7 ten horns and little horn idea, totaling 11 horns. The beast king of Rev.17 represents the "little horn", and that is who the ten give their power to.

 

[helmut]

A kingdom has a king. Worshiping the king is, in the language of revelation, worshiping the kingdom.

Afraid not. The Biblical pattern we are given is the historical king of Babylon involving direct worship of the golden image of Nebuchadnezzar himself. THAT... is what Daniel and his fellows refused to bow to at the call to worship (Daniel 3).

So the worship in Dan 2 was to the image of a person, right?

The final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 is represented by the 70 years captivity period of the Jews by the king of Babylon.

You lost me. The Judean were about 40 years in captivity in Babylon, the often quoted 70 years were the time span Juda had to be submitted to Babylon (from the death of Josia to the destruction of the Babylon empire by Cyrus), Jer 25:11. In Dan 9, Daniel ponders about that time (with a somewhat imprecise memory, cf. Dan 9:2), and God tells him there is more to come, 70 "weeks" (i.e. 490 years) in total.

And your somewhat hatred of Trump by trying to associate worship of the beast king idea with him is noted, and is false

Well, I draw an association, but this was not specific to Trump. The Obama hype was about the same strength (in Europe, definitely more) than the Trump hype.

since Trump is one of the best U.S. Presidents we've ever had

I live in a country with 9,260deaths caused by covid-19. Projected to the USA means 36593.7 deaths (I leave it up to you to round this figure), but the real number of casualties in the USA is 165,855. Even if I give room for different circumstances, it is next to certain that 100,000 lives of US citizens could have been spared if Trump acted prudently instead of celebrating himself (as he always does).

How many US presidents can be made responsible for the death of 100,000 US citizens?

And from a Christian viewpoint: A person that is proud of him grabbing into the pu**y of women without negative consequences, and claims even if he shot down someone in the street, he would come out unconvicted - such a person you call one of the "best" US presidents? What on earth qualifies Trump as such?

and is fulfilling the historical role of Jehu in the Old Testament.

Jehu got his mission from Elisha. Which prophet informed Trump about his heavenly mission of the Jehu type?

 

[Rachel20]

Hi Rachael,

I did look up Walter Veith. He had some good links to `the Big Reset.` However as he is a SDA I do not agree with all his teachings. But it was good to hear someone speaking in relationship to what is happening in our world and not always thinking God has only written about powers of the past.

Hi Marilyn, I feel the same way. I disagree with him on a lot of things, but still enjoy him and have learned from him. Take care!

 

[Davy]

So the worship in Dan 2 was to the image of a person, right?

Likely of himself, right. (see: 1. The worship of Nebuchadnezzar's statue 3:1-7 - Expository Notes on the Bible (Constable) - Alkitab SABDA)

You lost me. The Judean were about 40 years in captivity in Babylon, the often quoted 70 years were the time span Juda had to be submitted to Babylon (from the death of Josia to the destruction of the Babylon empire by Cyrus), Jer 25:11. In Dan 9, Daniel ponders about that time (with a somewhat imprecise memory, cf. Dan 9:2), and God tells him there is more to come, 70 "weeks" (i.e. 490 years) in total.

I was speaking of the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah 25 being 'symbolically' representative of the final 7 years "one week" prophecy given in Daniel 9:27. If you're not familiar how the Dan.9:27 "one week" equals a period of 7 years, then put it on a shelf for now, you may eventually understand.

Well, I draw an association, but this was not specific to Trump. The Obama hype was about the same strength (in Europe, definitely more) than the Trump hype.

Not interested in hype. According to my Lord Jesus, we shall know His enemies by their works. Trump produces works off the good tree, Obama's works off the evil tree.

I live in a country with 9,260deaths caused by covid-19. Projected to the USA means 36593.7 deaths (I leave it up to you to round this figure), but the real number of casualties in the USA is 165,855. Even if I give room for different circumstances, it is next to certain that 100,000 lives of US citizens could have been spared if Trump acted prudently instead of celebrating himself (as he always does).

How many US presidents can be made responsible for the death of 100,000 US citizens?

That of course is false info. The Leftist political factions intentionally caused a delay of action, and you blame that on Trump? Looks like you definitely side with the Leftists who tried to prevent Trump from getting an early handle on the problem, and then used it against him politically when they were the ones preventing him, just to try and make him look bad (like they are STILL trying to do today). Anyone with at least a pint of common sense can figure out what the Leftists are trying to do.

 

[Marilyn C]

Benelux had no (single) leader. If you do not allow to count the leaders of NL, B and L as "leaders" in the EEC, you end up with three leaders, not four.

In the council, every country had exactly one vote, so Luxembourg had the same "voting power" than France or Germany. This is still the case in the current EU.
In the commission, the minor states(i.e. the Benelux states) had one seat, the three larger states had two. The EU commission is built on this principle up to now, but the details are more complicated with 27 members than in the old days with six members.

Again, there is no reasonable way to arrive at a "four".

Benelux comprises of Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemboug. There is one leader for the three. Thus with Germany, France and Italy there were 4 heads/leaders of the beginnings of the EU.

 

[iamlamad]

You are repeating same speculations and your private interpretations have proven wrong. Nothing but a Newspaper Eschatology.

Sometimes you cause me to laugh. This post did that! Good observation!

 

[helmut]

It's actually what YOU say that is a contradiction, because to believe that the roles of the beast and false prophet are flesh-born men would mean the GWT (Great White Throne Judgment) happens before... the start of the 1,000 years reign.

How on earth should this follow from the theorem that the two beasts are men (and their empires)?

And I'll say it again. IF... one believes the beast and false prophet roles are flesh-born men, then that is to say God's GWT Judgment happens on the day of Christ's coming to end this PRESENT world time. That simply because we are shown at the end of Rev.19 that the beast and false prophet go into the "lake of fire" when Jesus comes on a white horse (to end this present world).

The beast and false prophet been thrown into the lake before the millenium simpüly means that these men are judged before the GWT. It does not change the time of GWT.

Be careful what conclusions you draw ...

 

[helmut]

That's strange, because my Greek Interlinear shows exactly the idea of WAR in the Revelation 12:7 verse. It is Strong's no. 4171, Greek polemos for those who want to look it up. It is translated as war in 17 places in the KJV New Testament.

OK, I did not look into an English version, in German I read things like " a dispute, strife, quarrel" (which is a meaning mentioned by Strong). According to the commentary I got this idea this is also reinforced by "[did not] prevail" (Strong's 2400) in V.8.

I see things are not as clear as suggested by that commentary. it is a possible interpretation, but not a sure one.

You obviously aren't even taking the time to read the actual Rev.12:8-11 Scripture.

Please take you the time to read not only V.8-11, but also the previous verses. The Messiah is born, he is raised, and then Satan is driven out of heaven. This is not two visions, it is a simple vision, the arrival of Jesus in heaven causes Satan to be driven out.

And all that = the very end of this world, not back in history. That's the context there.

The time has nothing to do with the question whether is was a war a conviction in heaven.

Do you mean to say that Satan still has, until the end of times, the possibility to come to the throne of God and accuse us?

and also where Satan's pit of hell is where the wicked dead are.

There is no hint in the Bible that the lake of fire exists before Jesus comes back. It is a place of punishment, not a dwelling place (not even for Satan). So what pit do you refer to? Rev 17:8 speaks of an abyss (bottomless chasm), but there is no mention of punishment or tormenting, so this abyss is not hell.

When Satan and his angels are cast OUT of the heavenly, there is ONLY one other place they can appear.

Rev 12:9 says that Satan is cast on earth. And this is said by English versions, too. You should have read it.

And you do believe God's Word as written

Yes I do, and therefore I think that Satan is not cast from heaven into pit (whatever pit you mean), but to earth.

don't you, about the ability of angels to appear here on earth with the image of man???

Why should I doubt that?

You are having that context problem again, not staying in the flow of the Chapter.

The problem I have: You spoke about seven heads in Rev 13:3 (sic!), I then said something about 7 resp. 8 kings, you reply with something about 10 kings. Do you think the seven heads of Rev 13:1 are the ten kings of Rev 17:12? I get the impression that your "flow" has confused you.

When you get to this verse in Rev.17 about the idea of kings, what relation does it have with what was previously written in that Chapter?

Never read Rev 17:8-10?

You pointed to seven mountains in Rev 17, I then pointed that Rev 17 also tells us the 7 heads are 7 (or 8, depending on counting method) kings. I did not say more.

You are confused. I never said Satan is the 1st beast in ANY capacity.

Sorry, I mixed things up, maybe I confused you with another guy here.

You no doubt have been listening to men's doctrines about Rev.13:1 so long that you cannot grasp how that is about the idea of a kingdom, a system, and not the Antichrist himself.

I didn't say that the first beast is the Antichrist. If the Antichrist appears in Revelation, he is presumably be the the second beast.

Are we to think the Antichrist, a person, will have seven mountains? /QUOTE]
Of course not. The first beast is an empire, and its ruler. Ruler and empire were so closely linked in antiquity that you could switch from one to the other in an instance.

The ten kings will serve him, as the Antichrist is the "little horn" role of the Book of Daniel.

Please read in your Bible where the word "antichrist" appears - and where not, note how the antichrist(s) is (are) described. The identification of the first beast with the Antichrist is a doctrine of men, that does not fit to what the Bible says. Your identification of the Antichrist with the little horn is a variant of this, certainly influenced by that former teaching.

According to the Bible, the Antichrist is a teacher (of heresies, of course). Whether he can be identified with some ruler is not clear - but you should note that teacher and ruler are two different roles.

 

[helmut]

I was speaking of the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah 25

.. which was not about captivity, but about submission to Babylon.

being 'symbolically' representative of the final 7 years "one week" prophecy given in Daniel 9:27.

Well, Daniel ponders about 70 years, he gets a messsage there will be 490 years (starting with the 70 years he thought about, at least the t4ext suggests this). So how can the 70 years be the last 7 of the 490 years?

Not interested in hype. According to my Lord Jesus, we shall know His enemies by their works. Trump produces works off the good tree, Obama's works off the evil tree.

What good did he work? Caressing with the one who is responsible for the worst persecution of Christians in our times (according to Open Doors)? Tearing an agreement that helped the world to prevent Iran from developing atomic bombs (now Iran openly resumes its efforts, seeing that neither Europe nor China was a great help in defense against the US sanctions)? Questioning the existing international law, as if the USA were a rogue state (the USA had traits of a rogue state before Trump, e.g. the discretionary killing by drones under Obama, but Trump made obstruction to law and conventions an almost regular part of his policy)? Denying loving neighbors, esp. refugees?

Or is everything "fake" I see in German media?

I fear the "good fruit" you want to show is something that means the Church can use the power of the state for her objectives. But this is a first step of a Church "riding" on the state and "going to bed" with the ruler, i.e. a first step of the church becoming a "harlot". No work of a good tree.

That of course is false info. The Leftist political factions intentionally caused a delay of action, and you blame that on Trump?

Interesting. Can you please link to a anything that shows it was Trump who demanded more testing, wearing masks or a temporal lock-down, and the "leftists" (which leftists? Sanders?) delayed that?

Anyone with at least a pint of common sense can figure out what the Leftists are trying to do.

Not only leftists do that, the non-left democrats (AFAIK the majority in that party), and even a growing number of republicans join in. Or rather "centrist" (correct term? neither left nor right) governments as the German Merkel administration ...

 

[helmut]

Benelux comprises of Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemboug. There is one leader for the three.

You are wrong. There is no such leader.

 

[Davy]

How on earth should this follow from the theorem that the two beasts are men (and their empires)?


The beast and false prophet been thrown into the lake before the millenium simpüly means that these men are judged before the GWT. It does not change the time of GWT.

Be careful what conclusions you draw ...

No flesh-born man is cast into the "lake of fire" PRIOR to the Great White Throne Judgment which ONLY will occur after Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect. That is what is written. This is why even Lord Jesus at His first coming was careful not to condemn to the "lake of fire", but only warned of the possibility of being condemned to perish. If anyone today even says another person is going to hell, they have usurped Christ's Authority as Judge. Reason was, it wasn't time for the GWT Judgment.

Then some will say, "well Jesus showed the rich man in hell in Luke 16." Problem with that is the KJV translators did not fully translate the various Greek terms rendered "hell" in the KJV. Some versions of KJV "hell" are different in the Greek texts for the New Testament, such as hades, tartaroo, geena. In Revelation 20:14, we are shown that "hell" goes into the future "lake of fire" and is destroyed.

 

[Davy]

OK, I did not look into an English version, in German I read things like " a dispute, strife, quarrel" (which is a meaning mentioned by Strong). According to the commentary I got this idea this is also reinforced by "[did not] prevail" (Strong's 2400) in V.8.

I see things are not as clear as suggested by that commentary. it is a possible interpretation, but not a sure one.

My version of the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says different:

Rev 12:7
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
KJV

"war"
NT:4171
polemos (pol'-em-os); from pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series):
KJV - battle, fight, war.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Please take you the time to read not only V.8-11, but also the previous verses. The Messiah is born, he is raised, and then Satan is driven out of heaven. This is not two visions, it is a simple vision, the arrival of Jesus in heaven causes Satan to be driven out.

Your interpretation is suggesting the Rev.12:7-9 casting out already happened. It didn't, because the Rev.12:10-17 verse context is connected with it which is about the end of this world.

Rev 12:1-6
12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Those symbols of the woman clothed with the sun and moon, and the crown of 12 stars, are symbols first given in Joseph's dream of Gen.37 about his mother, father, and his 11 brethren. It represents God's Israel.

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This represents the birth of Eve's children, Cain and Abel.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

That part in bold underline represents the time of Satan's original rebellion against God in the old world. His beast kingdom system then had only seven crowns. That was about Satan's original casting out of heaven to the earth. Jesus said He beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. The dragon standing before the symbolic woman that Christ would be born through represents Satan's attempts to destroy the Seed of the Woman, starting with Abel.

5 And she brought forth a man Child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her Child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The Child represents Christ Jesus. His reign with that rod of iron is still expecting today; it begins at His return, which still yet future to us.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV

That represents the children of Israel, scattered through the nations among the Gentiles, with the majority of them having become hidden. For the end it represents the first half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years of Dan.9:27.

The time has nothing to do with the question whether is was a war a conviction in heaven.

Do you mean to say that Satan still has, until the end of times, the possibility to come to the throne of God and accuse us?

Yes, of course. Satan is not locked in the pit yet like some wrongly teach. Apostle Peter made that plain (1 Peter 5:8). Until Satan is cast out of the heavenly dimension into our earthly dimension, he is still free to roam, seeking to devour souls, and accuse us before God's Throne in Heaven.

Some also wrongly teach that John 12:31 is proof that Satan is now locked in the pit, being cast out of this world when Jesus died on the cross. If that were true, then what Peter said in 1 Peter 5:8 would be false. It means... in John 12:31 Lord Jesus was actually pointing to Satan's future time of being cast down to this earth with his angels, for the time of "great tribulation".

There is no hint in the Bible that the lake of fire exists before Jesus comes back. It is a place of punishment, not a dwelling place (not even for Satan). So what pit do you refer to? Rev 17:8 speaks of an abyss (bottomless chasm), but there is no mention of punishment or tormenting, so this abyss is not hell.

Satan's pit prison of Isaiah 42:7 is about the abode called Hades, which of course is not the future "lake of fire" event. Satan is the angel of Rev.9 that is king over that bottomless pit. There apparently are different levels of dwelling in it, because Peter used the Greek tartaroo to describe where the fallen angels are kept in chains, that Greek meaning the deepest part of the abyss or pit (2 Peter 2:4).

Rev 12:9 says that Satan is cast on earth. And this is said by English versions, too. You should have read it.

This is what my Bible says... which you have to include the 7-8 verses instead of just skipping to verse 9 like you did:

Rev 12:7-8
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
KJV

So like I said, having to repeat myself once again to dull ears... there are ONLY 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one where God and the angels dwell, and where even Satan's abode with the wicked is.

Verse 8 tells us when Satan looses that war in heaven, his and his angel's place in that heavenly dimension will no longer exist. That means they have only one other... place they can go, and it is down to this earth in OUR dimension.

Yes I do, and therefore I think that Satan is not cast from heaven into pit (whatever pit you mean), but to earth.

Why should I doubt that?

Then you shouldn't have a problem understanding that Rev.12:7-13 Scripture is about Satan and his angels being kicked out of the heavenly dimension down to our earthly dimension, and their manifesting, in plain sight, on earth for us to see with our physical eyes.

Afterall, Hebrews 13:2 tells us to be mindful to entertain strangers, because some have entertained angels unaware. That means we can't really tell an angel from a flesh human as far outward appearance likeness goes. They look like we do, with the image of man. So does Satan, and not only that, but God in Ezekiel 28 pointed to having made Satan the full pattern of beauty.

The problem I have: You spoke about seven heads in Rev 13:3 (sic!), I then said something about 7 resp. 8 kings, you reply with something about 10 kings. Do you think the seven heads of Rev 13:1 are the ten kings of Rev 17:12? I get the impression that your "flow" has confused you.

You made a mistake with misquoting me with that (sic) marker. There's only 3 places where I mention the idea of 'seven heads' from. And it is in either Rev.12:3, or Rev.13:1, or Rev.17:3, 7, 9. You were looking at Rev.13:3 when you should have noticed I had mentioned the seven heads from Rev.12:3 (see my post 64).

The concurrent 10 kings idea is written starting in Rev.17:12, regarding the ten horns. You wrongly assumed I was speaking of the 8 kings using your term "collective leadership". I wasn't, because I clearly pointed to the Rev.17:12-14 Scripture, even directly quoted the verses for you. So what's the problem?

And I'm pretty sure I made clear mention that the "seven heads" are seven mountains, like the Rev.17:9 verse says (yes, I did, in my post 84). So again, what's the problem?

No, I never said the 8 kings of Rev.17:10-11 represents the seven heads, nor even the 10 horns I was describing to you. So once again, what's the problem? You can discern verse numbers can't you, because I am very picky about providing accurate Scripture references in my posts. I rarely make those kind of mistakes.

Never read Rev 17:8-10?

You pointed to seven mountains in Rev 17, I then pointed that Rev 17 also tells us the 7 heads are 7 (or 8, depending on counting method) kings. I did not say more.

Of course I've read Rev.17:8-11 (you left out the 11th verse which is part of that consecutive king context).

No, the seven KINGS are NOT... the "seven heads". I don't know where you got that false idea from. The seven heads = seven mountains per Rev.17:9. That means 7 geographical areas on the earth, not seven persons. The seven kings in the next verse is a change of subject.

Revelation 17 is a little tricky regarding the subject changes, because it changes back and forth quickly between the idea of the 1st beast (kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns) and the idea of the 2nd beast (the "another beast", a person, representing the beast king idea).

 

[Davy]

.. which was not about captivity, but about submission to Babylon.

It was a captivity of the house of Judah (Jews) taken to Babylon by king Nebuchadnezzar who destroyed Jerusalem and the first temple. So don't be silly saying it wasn't a captivity. You might want to read 2 Kings 24.

Well, Daniel ponders about 70 years, he gets a messsage there will be 490 years (starting with the 70 years he thought about, at least the t4ext suggests this). So how can the 70 years be the last 7 of the 490 years?

No thanks. I don't need a lesson on the 70 'weeks' prophecy in Dan.9. I well understand it. The 70 'years' prophecy mentioned in Dan.9:2 is about the Jeremiah 25 prophecy. The 70 'weeks' prophecy is a different prophecy. So clearly I understand the difference.

But apparently what you don't seem to understand is analogy and symbolism, because the 70 years CAPTIVITY of the Jews to Babylon was a punishment and probation period because of their having fallen away, and by ANALOGY, that type of trial represents the time of "great tribulation" for the very end of this world also. Moreover, the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27 is a direct pointer to events at then very end of this world. That final "one week" has not been fulfilled yet today.

Both Isaiah 21:9 and Revelation 14:8 and 18:2 have the same words, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen". So don't try to tell me the events of that final "one week" of Dan.9:27 has no relation to the end of this world per Christ's Book of Revelation.

What good did he work? Caressing with the one who is responsible for the worst persecution of Christians in our times (according to Open Doors)? Tearing an agreement that helped the world to prevent Iran from developing atomic bombs (now Iran openly resumes its efforts, seeing that neither Europe nor China was a great help in defense against the US sanctions)? Questioning the existing international law, as if the USA were a rogue state (the USA had traits of a rogue state before Trump, e.g. the discretionary killing by drones under Obama, but Trump made obstruction to law and conventions an almost regular part of his policy)? Denying loving neighbors, esp. refugees?

Or is everything "fake" I see in German media?

I fear the "good fruit" you want to show is something that means the Church can use the power of the state for her objectives. But this is a first step of a Church "riding" on the state and "going to bed" with the ruler, i.e. a first step of the church becoming a "harlot". No work of a good tree.

I'm not going to listen to your false Leftist hype against Trump, because that's all it is, made up stories from the far Left Communists who hate not only Trump, but also all the Christian nations. Your country, Germany, was taken over by Communists long ago, just as many western European nations today with their various Labor movements by Communists that run them, especially the German Economic Union which was behind the establishing of the Socialist European Union! Like the ex-KGB defector Golitsyn said, the Communists plan is for a one-Socialist Europe, from the Atlantic ocean to the Urals!

 

[Marilyn C]

You are wrong. There is no such leader.

From Wikipedia -

The Benelux Union (Dutch: Benelux Unie;[4] French: Union Benelux;[5] Luxembourgish: Benelux-Unioun),[6] also known as simply Benelux, is a politico-economic union and formal international intergovernmental cooperation of three neighbouring states in western Europe: Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg.[7] The name Benelux is a portmanteau formed from joining the first few letters of each country's name – Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg – and was first used to name the customs agreement that initiated the union (signed in 1944).[8] It is now used more generally to refer to the geographic, economic, and cultural grouping of the three countries.

Cooperation among the governments of Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg has been a firmly established practice since the introduction of a customs union in 1944 which became operative in 1948 as the Benelux Customs Union.

 

[helmut]

No flesh-born man is cast into the "lake of fire" PRIOR to the Great White Throne Judgment which ONLY will occur after Christ's 1,000 years reign with His elect. That is what is written.

Where it is written that no flesh-born is cast into the sea of fire prior to GWT?

This is why even Lord Jesus at His first coming was careful not to condemn to the "lake of fire", but only warned of the possibility of being condemned to perish.

With one exception, John 17:12.

If anyone today even says another person is going to hell, they have usurped Christ's Authority as Judge.

Reason was, it wasn't time for the GWT Judgment.

No, reason was not the timing, but the one who judged without authority to judge.

It is the Son of man who will judge and rule the world. That is what is written in Daniel.

 

[helmut]

Your interpretation is suggesting the Rev.12:7-9 casting out already happened. It didn't, because the Rev.12:10-17 verse context is connected with it which is about the end of this world.

You really say that Satan has the still the right to accuse us before the throne of God, until "the end of the world"? Rom 8:33,34 says the contrary.

Those symbols of the woman clothed with the sun and moon, and the crown of 12 stars, are symbols first given in Joseph's dream of Gen.37 about his mother, father, and his 11 brethren. It represents God's Israel.
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This represents the birth of Eve's children, Cain and Abel.

From one verse to another, you switch from Israel (I agree to that) to Eve (that's a no-go for prudent exegesis).

The dragon standing before the symbolic woman that Christ would be born through represents Satan's attempts to destroy the Seed of the Woman, starting with Abel.

What's that: The child Satan wants to devour is identified by you as Jesus (again: I agree), but the you say it was Abel? With such loose manner you can read anything you want into the Bible.

Yes, of course. Satan is not locked in the pit yet like some wrongly teach.

Never heard someone teaching this. The Bible clearly says Satan is thrown not into a pit (not yet, in Ch.12), but unto earth.

Apostle Peter made that plain (1 Peter 5:8). Until Satan is cast out of the heavenly dimension into our earthly dimension, he is still free to roam, seeking to devour souls, and accuse us before God's Throne in Heaven.

Peter speaks about roaming and seeking to devour, but he does not say Satan accuses us before the throne of God.

No-one can accuse the chosen ones, Rom 8:33.

Satan's pit prison of Isaiah 42:7 is about the abode called Hades, which of course is not the future "lake of fire" event.

I can't see that Is 42:7 speaks of Satan in a prison. Do you think of people bound by Satan in an "prison"? Well, this prison is not the abyss, because we know a person bound in that way (and freed by Jesus), Lk 13:16. She had not been in a pit ...

So like I said, having to repeat myself once again to dull ears... there are ONLY 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one where God and the angels dwell, and where even Satan's abode with the wicked is.

You mean: Saran driven out of heaven drives him from his "pit of hell"?

I can't see where the Bible locates such a pit in heaven. Heaven is the place where the will of God is done (Mt 6:10). Satan can bind people on earth (this is the theme of Is 42:7), and he can do many wicked things after he has been thrown out of heaven.

Then you shouldn't have a problem understanding that Rev.12:7-13 Scripture is about Satan and his angels being kicked out of the heavenly dimension down to our earthly dimension, and their manifesting, in plain sight, on earth for us to see with our physical eyes.

This is not said in Rev 12, this is your interpretation. You have to take refuge to a haphazard exegesis (Israel becoming eve, Jesus becoming Abel and back again Christ) and some awkward theories (the "pit of hell" being a place in heaven) to maintain this.

You made a mistake with misquoting me with that (sic) marker. There's only 3 places where I mention the idea of 'seven heads' from. And it is in either Rev.12:3, or Rev.13:1, or Rev.17:3, 7, 9. You were looking at Rev.13:3 when you should have noticed I had mentioned the seven heads from Rev.12:3 (see my post 64).

I did not "quote", but mentioned what you wrote in post 64:

7. Rev.13:3 -- this final world beast kingdom which is to have seven heads, are seven mountains per Rev.17, and one of the heads suffers a deadly wound

Then I pointed out that these 7 kings are not simultaneous ... (you can see it in Rev 17:9-11), and your reaction was:

7When you get to this verse in Rev.17 about the idea of kings, what relation does it have with what was previously written in that Chapter?

Burt you did not go to what was written previously, but quote Rev 17:12-14.

So what's the problem?

You accuse me of not understanding, while it was you who did not understand what I was pounting to,

No, I never said the 8 kings of Rev.17:10-11 represents the seven heads,

Just look on the quote above, with the words

seven heads, are seven mountains

This is an allusion to Rev 17,9: The seven heads are seven mountains, and seven kings. It seems some English versions put the last clause into V.10, but that does not change the fact these 7 kings are identified with the 7 heads/mountains. The best explanation is IMHO that there are two interpretations of "7 heads" that are both valid.

Revelation 17 is a little tricky regarding the subject changes, because it changes back and forth quickly between the idea of the 1st beast (kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns) and the idea of the 2nd beast (the "another beast", a person, representing the beast king idea).

It's not Rev 17 that is changing, it is only your interpretation, which uses every trick to harmonize Revelation with your ideas, instead of letting you be corrected to what Revelation says.

 

[helmut]

It was a captivity of the house of Judah (Jews) taken to Babylon by king Nebuchadnezzar who destroyed Jerusalem and the first temple. So don't be silly saying it wasn't a captivity. You might want to read 2 Kings 24.

I didn't speak about 2.Ki 24, I spoke about what the prophet Jeremiah said:

Jr 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

As to captivity, it was about 40 years, as you can check with historical textbooks or time-chats in your Bible. The 70 years are not the 40 years of captivity, but the 70 years of submission. Got it?

Both Isaiah 21:9 and Revelation 14:8 and 18:2 have the same words, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen".

Which means there is a connection between these two verses. but what kind of connection?

A verse in the Bible may have more that one interpretation: John 10:1-5 is interpreted by Jesus Himself in two quite different ways (I am the door, I am the good shepherd). A prophecy may have more than one fulfillment: As we can see via the 1150 days (or "2300 mornings and eves") in Dan 8:14, the little horn is Antioch Ephiphanes, ant the altar for Zeus in the temple of God was the abomination of desolation in Dan 11:31. It took three years and 10 days (the Maccabees book focus on three years, but jumps over the ten days when no sacrifices at all, neither to God nor to Zeus, were offered), or 38 months (leap years!), or 1150 days, until the sacrifices for God were resumed. But as we now from Matthew, the abomination of desolation in Daniel still has another fulfillment - the Christian in 68 saw it, were warned (Mt 24:15) and fled from Jerusalem.

Likewise the same words do not say that Is 21:9 is just about the last times, it is primary about the fall of Babylon to the Medes in 539 B.C.

I'm not going to listen to your false Leftist hype against Trump, because that's all it is, made up stories

Well he said what I quoted, that is not just made-up.

BTW, I'm an anti-communist. I learned it from my father.

Your country, Germany, was taken over by Communists long ago

No, The place where I grew up was part of the British occupation zone resp. West Germany. But my parents came from the very East of Germany, given to Poland at the Potsdam conference, and the Germans were driven out, or those who had fled to the West were denied from entering their homeland.

My mother (and other relatives) lived for some times in the soviet occupation zone, and finally fled to the West. I know what my parents told me, I have read much about Communism (e.g. The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn) and about the persecution of Christians by the communists.

I know what Communism is, and I tell you there is no communism in Western Europe - apart from very small parties, the MLPD in Germany (Marxis-Leninist Party of Germany) got about 0.1%, DKP (German Communist Partys) got 0.03% in the last general election. The former Communist Party Die Linke (the Left) got 9,2%, but it has abandoned communism (at least nominally, but especially younger members take it seriously). I did not vote to one of them, of course.

But I know that sometimes people take catchwords like fascism (this is the leftist way) or communism, to denounce their political enemies. In some countries (e.g. South Africa under Botha, VChile under Pinochet) the accusation of Communism was used as an excuse of torture and other violations of human rights.

You don't know that the democratic (non-communist, of course) socialism in Sweden was abolished when Sweden entered the EEC, that is now EU. This is just one fact out of many that shows the EU is not Socialist. A person that tells Europe is Socialist (or even communist) is either blind to the facts or a blatant liar.