The 4 Beasts & the 4 Horsemen.

[helmut]

Comparing the 4 beasts & the 4 horsemen.

The 4 beasts. (Daniel 7: 4 - 7)

These are the emoires who existed before the coming of Jesus. Like all OT prophets, Daniel knew nothing about the "gap between the first ans second coming of Christ.

So, all interpretation to empires that came after the death and resurrection of Jesus is simply wrong.

[QUOTE="Marilyn C, post: 75228325, member: 344539"]The 4 Horsemen. (Revelation 6: 1 - 8) [/QUOTE]
I suppose the key is the colours:

White - the supremacy of whites over the world in the 19th century.
Red - the "Reds" take the peace from earth - communism (and according to Greek color terms, you may add nazism too, I suppose).
Black - The blacks (Africa) will hunger
Pale - that is a primary color term in ancient Greek, the closest primary color terms in English are Green, Yellow and Grey. Depending which color you choose you will end up in different interpretations.

Another possibility is to see it as a serious ef events that are interconnected.

Someone goes out for victory (in war) - white is the color of victory in the ancient world. This removes the peace from the earth, and the war causes hunger and deadly illness (the "pale" could be interpreted as the color of dead bodies).

 

[helmut]

Is God just the God of the past and the future? Is He now God of the present? Does He not reveal His plans to His prophets?

But it requires some knowledge to divide the word as it should be divided in interpretation (2.Tim 2:15, I refer to the original language).

The criticism is that you do what plenty of other people did: applying Scripture to "newspaper news", without looking at inherent meanings - thus arriving at interpretations like "Apollyon is Napolean" or "He is the horse man on the red horse", and then predicting things wrong.

 

[helmut]

Calm down. I haven’t yet explain the four beasts and four horsemen yet, except the while horse which is Christ, not antichrist as most believe.

How do you arrive at Christ being the white horseman?

Christ is the lamb, who opens the seal that will enroll the document for the one who receives authority over the whole world. And with every seal He breaks open in heaven, something happens on earth.

But did John really wanted us to perceive Christ the lamb before the throne of God riding on a white horse over the earth while He breaks the first seal before the throne of God? That seems rather far-fetched.

Whatever the white horse it, it is not Christ.

 

[helmut]

In Daniel 7 we see that the last beastly kingdom treads down the first two beasts/kingdoms.

`As for the rest of the beasts (kingdoms) they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.` (Dan. 7: 12)

"Prolonged"? No German translation says anything like that. And I see no hint in the Strong's note that this is in the Hebrew. Maybe someone with more knowledge on Hebrew may correct me, but I stick to the natural interpretation that times and seasons were given to them, so when the season for the first ended, the second came up, and so on.

You ase your interpretation on a translation that is doubtful, to say the least.

The Great Image is symbolic of the Times of the Gentiles ruling the world.

Thus those 3 kingdoms (beasts) have their power taken away but their lives go on. (Dan. 7: 12)
No. The time of the Gentiles started in 70 AD, the time of the kingdoms stretched from Daniel to Christ's (first) coming. This does not even overlap.

 

[helmut]

I have studied it, thank you. Also what they taught has now come to pass, so that is not newspaper eschatology. You don`t know what you speak of.

Can you name some events that were foretold by theses "godly" teachers, and came to pass?

 

[helmut]

So the world isn't going to worship the beast kingdom, they are going to worship that "another beast" that will have power to do miracles, raining fire from heaven down to the earth.

Please look into Rev 13: It is the second beast that makes the world worshiping the first beast (Verse 12).

 

[helmut]

The idea of the false prophet is difficult for many to understand. It is actually just another 'role' that Satan will play. Satan will be the 1) beast king, and 2) false prophet, and 3) the dragon, all rolled into one. How is this proven?

Well, I'm not sure whether what you said about that can be counted as "proof". But I remember that some take the three figures as a sort of satanic trinity, with the dragon being the counter-image to the father, the (first) beast to the Son, and the false prophet to the Holy Spirit. This is rather close to what you say.

 

[Davy]

The Global leader and the false prophet are people who are controlled by Satan. They are not Satan himself, for scripture clearly shows that they are people.

`The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and his great authority.` (Rev. 13: 2)

You are not rightly dividing the Scripture. The Rev.13:1-2 verses are describing the 1st beast, which is the beast kingdom. Rev.17 further describes that beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. The KJV uses third person pronouns like "his" that could have been translated as "it". That apparently throws many off in Rev.13 about the two different beast ideas there. Further into Rev.13 we are shown more this real difference between the two beast ideas...

Rev 13:12
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV

That "another beast", the one that speaks as a dragon, exercises all the power of the 1st beast that has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. And it's the 1st beast that suffers the deadly wound to one of its seven heads, not the dragon himself. Thus we have to separate those 2 different beast ideas.

1. beast kingdom (Rev.13:1-2) = 1st beast that has ten horns, seven heads, ten crowns.
2. beast king (Rev.13 dragon and "another beast") = one that has two horns LIKE a lamb, and speaks as a dragon.

 

[Davy]

Entered by mistake.

 

[Davy]

Please look into Rev 13: It is the second beast that makes the world worshiping the first beast (Verse 12).

The context in Rev.13 is what determines that idea of worship.

The 1st beast is a system, having ten horns (ten kings), seven heads (seven mountains), and ten crowns, that per Rev.13:1, and further shown in Rev.17:15 as the waters that represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues". It is what the Babylon harlot, which is a "great city", sits over.

So we can't just read Rev.13 by itself and get the whole picture.

Even in Rev.12:3-4 we were shown about a beast kingdom Satan first rebelled with, having ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns. It is linked with the time when he as that "red dragon" drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth, which was about his original rebellion against God in the previous world.

Obviously then, to worship a system involving geographical areas like seven mountains, that has ten kings, and ten crowns, and that involves peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues, we ought to well know that isn't about worship of a person, but love of a system, the beast kingdom. When that one-world government system is finally manifest in our near future, the world will love it.

But it will be the 2nd beast, the one of Rev.13:11 forward and Rev.13:4-8 that the world will actually worship, thinking he is God. That will be because of the miracles he will work, as written there in Rev.13:13-14. In 2 Thess.2:4, Apostle Paul said he will exalt himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped. It's not difficult to grasp that that 2nd beast is actually the one the world will literally worship in place of God.

 

[Davy]

All the multiple global leaders, multiple antichrists... type ideas are designs to get one off this simplicity written in Revelation about the coming false Messiah to play God and worshiped by the whole world (excepting Christ's elect).

 

[Davy]

Well, I'm not sure whether what you said about that can be counted as "proof". But I remember that some take the three figures as a sort of satanic trinity, with the dragon being the counter-image to the father, the (first) beast to the Son, and the false prophet to the Holy Spirit. This is rather close to what you say.

It will depend on what you listen to, either men's doctrines or God's Word. There's a whole lot of men's ideas about it, but only God's Word will reveal its true meaning. The idea of a 'Satanic trinity' neither proves the 3 roles idea, nor disproves it.

What proves the 3 roles idea is how the beast and false prophet go into the lake of fire on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. That would mean prior... to God's GWT Judgment.

And I know what kind of God I worship, one that showed He only is Judge to the lake of fire, and per His Word He has only judged and sentenced Satan and his angels to perish. No flesh born man, not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced to the "lake of fire" yet. (Many think he has because of the title "son of perdition" Jesus used, but Paul showed in 2 Thess.2 that title actually belongs to that false one coming to Jerusalem to play God, which will be Satan himself.)

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, but "the four winds of heaven" refer to winds in the four cardinal directions (in my mother tongue, they are called "heaven directions", Himmelsrichtungen). There is no reason or hint why we should equate them with the spirits before the throne of God.

Hi helmut,

However we see that the vision that Daniel saw was given in pictorial form. The kingdoms were described as beasts, and thus they were not actual beasts. This goes for the `winds` that stirred up the great sea, it was the 4 spirits as `winds` were the pictorial representation of the actual - 4 spirits of heaven.

 

[Marilyn C]

These are the emoires who existed before the coming of Jesus. Like all OT prophets, Daniel knew nothing about the "gap between the first ans second coming of Christ.

So, all interpretation to empires that came after the death and resurrection of Jesus is simply wrong.

[QUOTE="Marilyn C, post: 75228325, member: 344539"]The 4 Horsemen. (Revelation 6: 1 - 8)

I suppose the key is the colours:

White - the supremacy of whites over the world in the 19th century.
Red - the "Reds" take the peace from earth - communism (and according to Greek color terms, you may add nazism too, I suppose).
Black - The blacks (Africa) will hunger
Pale - that is a primary color term in ancient Greek, the closest primary color terms in English are Green, Yellow and Grey. Depending which color you choose you will end up in different interpretations.

Another possibility is to see it as a serious ef events that are interconnected.

Someone goes out for victory (in war) - white is the color of victory in the ancient world. This removes the peace from the earth, and the war causes hunger and deadly illness (the "pale" could be interpreted as the color of dead bodies).[/QUOTE]

The key is God`s plans and purposes. God the Father said to His Son -

`Sit at my right hand till I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL.` (Ps. 110: 1)

That is what we are seeing. God the Father bringing the nations (Ps. 2) to His Son`s footstool for judgment. And who has brought the nations into the Great Federations of our time? Yes God the Father.
And we see that when His Son judges these great federations that 3 are given an extension of life (Dan. 7: 12) when He sets up His rulership through Israel. (Dan. 7: 27)

 

[Marilyn C]

But it requires some knowledge to divide the word as it should be divided in interpretation (2.Tim 2:15, I refer to the original language).

The criticism is that you do what plenty of other people did: applying Scripture to "newspaper news", without looking at inherent meanings - thus arriving at interpretations like "Apollyon is Napolean" or "He is the horse man on the red horse", and then predicting things wrong.

It can look like `newspaper news` however when you read Daniel 7 and see that the 3 first kingdoms continue on past the time when the Lord sets up His rulership through Israel, then you realise that God is revealing great federations of our time.

Then looking at the description and order of the beastly kingdoms arising, we can see that the great Federations that control the G7, G20 & UN, all have those recognisable emblems and came up in that order.

 

[Marilyn C]

"Prolonged"? No German translation says anything like that. And I see no hint in the Strong's note that this is in the Hebrew. Maybe someone with more knowledge on Hebrew may correct me, but I stick to the natural interpretation that times and seasons were given to them, so when the season for the first ended, the second came up, and so on.

You ase your interpretation on a translation that is doubtful, to say the least.

Thus those 3 kingdoms (beasts) have their power taken away but their lives go on. (Dan. 7: 12)
No. The time of the Gentiles started in 70 AD, the time of the kingdoms stretched from Daniel to Christ's (first) coming. This does not even overlap.

God`s word tells us that the times of the Gentiles ruling the world started with the king of Babylon.

`You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength and glory and wherever the children of men dwell, or beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all - you are this head of gold.` (Dan. 2: 37 & 38)

 

[Marilyn C]

1. beast kingdom (Rev.13:1-2) = 1st beast that has ten horns, seven heads, ten crowns.
2. beast king (Rev.13 dragon and "another beast") = one that has two horns LIKE a lamb, and speaks as a dragon.

1. The beast out of the sea with 7 heads, 10 horns and 10 crowns etc is the Political Global Government. The leader of that system is given power, throne and great authority by Satan.

2. The beast out of the earth is the second leader who oversees the economic and religious aspect of the Global Government. (see `worship` & mark to buy and sell, Rev. 13: 12 & 16 & 17).

 

[helmut]

Obviously then, to worship a system involving geographical areas like seven mountains, that has ten kings, and ten crowns, and that involves peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues, we ought to well know that isn't about worship of a person, but love of a system, the beast kingdom.

A kingdom has a king. Worshiping the king is, in the language of revelation, worshiping the kingdom.

Just remember the emperor cult in ancient Rome (the type that was used as a blueprint for describing the two beasts), or modern "personality cult", as in North Korea (an extreme example, the deceased leaders of the country are almost officially called "god"s), or in China, and to some degree even in the US (Trump).

The Greek word for "beast" is neuter, but in Rev 13 there are some masculine pronounce used that refer to the beast: "who" in V.4, (worship) "him" in V.8, "which" (the AV contains a corruption of the TR) in V.14. All other pronouns referring to the beast are in a form that is either masculine or neuter, there is no definitely neuter pronoun that refers to the beast in Rev 13 (Greek text, of course). - I didn't check Rev 17.

This means the beast is a person (and this person will suffer eternally, Rev 20:10). If you think the beast is not a man, it must be a demon or someone like that.

When that one-world government system is finally manifest in our near future, the world will love it.

And those who do not love it/him, will shut their mouth or suffer as hinted in Rev 13:10.

But it will be the 2nd beast, the one of Rev.13:11 forward and Rev.13:4-8 that the world will actually worship, thinking he is God.

No. The second beast is not "the false God", but "the false prophet". A prophet usually does not think himself as a God, but rather proclaims the God he is prophet for. There is nothing in the text that the false prophet is anything different as - a false prophet, proclaiming a false God (the first beast).

In 2 Thess.2:4, Apostle Paul said he will exalt himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped. It's not difficult to grasp that that 2nd beast is actually the one the world will literally worship in place of God.

When you combine biblical passages, do not distort the meaning of one of them! I suppose Paul refers to the first beast, and mentions the miracles of the second beast without mentioning it - probably because he did no nothing about the false prophet. I may be wrong, but at least I did not change the meaning of one passage in order to make them dovetailing in a was that pleases me.

 

[helmut]

What proves the 3 roles idea is how the beast and false prophet go into the lake of fire on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. That would mean prior... to God's GWT Judgment.

I don't know what GWT is, but I read in the Bible that the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the fire 1000 years before Satan will enter there. So this point does not prove but rather contradicts your "role" theory. The two beasts are not just roles of Satan, but persons that are not Satan himself.

It is astonishing that someone who admonishes to listen to Scripture, not to teachings of men, does serve a thesis that clearly contradicts the Bible!

No flesh born man, not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced to the "lake of fire" yet.

Yes, not yet. As we know from Revelation, the first persons to be thrown into this lake will be the two breasts.

(Many think he has because of the title "son of perdition" Jesus used, but Paul showed in 2 Thess.2 that title actually belongs to that false one coming to Jerusalem to play God, which will be Satan himself.)

Maybe that title belongs to both of them?

 

[helmut]

However we see that the vision that Daniel saw was given in pictorial form. The kingdoms were described as beasts, and thus they were not actual beasts. This goes for the `winds` that stirred up the great sea, it was the 4 spirits as `winds` were the pictorial representation of the actual - 4 spirits of heaven.

That is your look on it. I had another interpretation of the four winds: The four cardinal directions.

Literally, four winds cannot meet a one spot. Therefore I did not even try to take "winds" literally.