The 10 Commandments are done away!

[VanillaSunflowers]

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

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The question asked was, were does Christ or God explicitly say the 10 commandments are done away with?

Those are all the epistles (letters) of Paul.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Grace in and of itself nullifies the law of commanments, lol. We're under the law of the Spirit where he writes God's love in the fleshy tables of the heart. The bible does say the law is spiritual Rom. 7:14. The 10c's are not spiritual.

Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he said if you love him you'll keep his commands?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Oh I see. Well I am really not fighting. I actually want to know. This is a topic I have been a part of, and I have my mind made up now, but I am open to changes. But, something this serious I need more than the usual CF interpretation. I need to hear God or Christ say this, or read it.

It is a huge deal to insinuate that God's law is no longer in effect, so it needs the same type of magnanimity of proof.

But, I will even consider other sources, or apocryphal sources if they show direct quotes from Christ, or God. But, I can't take something like this at man''s word even if it is Paul, Peter, Enoch or Moses.

Jesus himself is enough to have settled the debate himself.
Jesus was asked, what must I do to inherit eternal life? Matthew 19:17-19.


When Jesus mission was to die so as to be the final sacrifice in the ceremonial law that would be done away after he was put on the last altar, and he knew this, why would he tell someone before it was done that the way to inherit eternal life was to keep his commands? And then list all that any Jew would be familiar with in the list of the 10 commandments?

The argument against the ten commandments that some espouse is a waste of time. And it is also a waste of time to argue against such when Jesus also spoke to the ten commandments being valid and in force himself.
See, the anti-ten commandments argument claims the ten commands are done away. Someone even said they're defunct. That Jesus destroyed the ten commandments when he died on the cross and became sin. But that isn't what Jesus said.

Matthew 5:17 proves that is untruth.
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill”

Jesus was the embodiment of the law. Every one of the the ten commandments pertain to love of and for God, or love of and for one another.
For instance picking random commands to make the point here. If you love your neighbor as yourself you do not covet their spouse.
If you love God you do not worship any other god. If you love your parents you honor your parents. If you love your neighbor as yourself you do not lie about your neighbor. You do not murder your neighbor. You do not steal from your neighbor.

Think then about what is being said when someone tells you none of that is true anymore.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

You still haven't shown where Christ said that God's law is null void or inert.

And, you aren't supposed to do SERVILE work.


Do you think Christ violated the Sabbath with His actions (and therefore, He violated the Law)? Were the pharisees right about Him?

I believe their claim was the ten commandments are defunct, not inert.

 

[BABerean2]

The question asked was, were does Christ or God explicitly say the 10 commandments are done away with?

Those are all the epistles (letters) of Paul.

When in doubt, use the witness of Paul and the other New Testament writers. If there is a conflict, you do not have the correct interpretation.

However, some of us do not like what Paul said...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.




.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The law demanded perfection So does Jesus, its just that Jesus shows us the way to that perfection is by mercy: changing the hardness of a man's heart into a heart of flesh by forcing a man to change his heart and seek forgiveness from God through forgiveness of others.

Bugkiller spoke well when he stated: "No. Moses did not give the Christian, especially the gentile Christian anything."

Yes, well, Bugkiller was wrong and spoke ignoring Matthew 5:18. For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus has not come again as yet. So all is not fulfilled. Jesus taught about that in Luke 24:44 also.
Moses was the deliverer of God's commandments. And being Jesus was sent to deliver the new covenant that was extended by God's grace to all the world, meaning everyone alive in the world. So contrary to bugkillers assertion, that includes the Jew and the "gentile Christian".

When Jesus in his ministry was asked by one, notice there is no identity given to the one? Not describing there a man, not woman, not that they were a Jew, or a Gentile. But they are referred to as "one", (KJV) in Matthew 19:16. Jesus when he was traveling in Judea he was asked by one, good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And Jesus answered: (17)And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

When Jesus, who was God, came to save the world he came to save everyone. When his teachings reiterated there in Matthew were in answer to the question about achieving life, Jesus gave his commands to all. The Jew and the Gentile. But there is no divide among those communities, some would say tribes, anymore being we are all one in Christ Jesus.

The argument, again, that the ten are done away is false. Jesus reiterated expressly to the question as to what must be done to achieve life. The life he ministered. Therefore the ten are not defunct. They are not done away. They cannot be said to no longer apply.
Jesus himself proved that in Matthew. And he stated it in Matthew 5:17. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” .

If the commands were destroyed, that verse is a lie. But it's not. Jesus was not an opponent of the law. He and his Apostles followed the law. Including the observation of the Sabbath. Fulfill cannot mean abolish. Otherwise Matthew 5:17 would read very oddly. "Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to abolish."

Fulfill is a Hebrew idiom that means, to carry out.
What I think causes a lot of argument among the faithful today is that we try to use modern usage when reading what was written within ancient Hebrew culture.
Jesus delivered his ministry in parables. Idioms were part of that and in fact are all through the Bible. If we read just the words on the page today as they are without knowing that, we read in modern terms and lose the meaning as it was meant to be understood.

This is a bit of a long article but it is worth the time to read if we can spend the time to argue these many pages on something Jesus cleared up thousands of years ago.

What Does It Mean to "Fulfill the Law"?
by Lois Tverberg

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

When in doubt, use the witness of Paul and the other New Testament writers. If there is a conflict, you do not have the correct interpretation.

However, some of us do not like what Paul said...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.




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I have no doubt. Jesus came to save the world through God extending his grace to the world. And Jesus was very clear on these matters.

 

[bugkiller]

Are you SERVING someone using electricity?

Turning on the lights, using napkins, driving a car, using a phone, etc. - those little Sabbath rules and regulations by MAN make the Sabbath a burden, and warp it's purpose.

NO SERVILE WORK. Egypt was SERVILE work. This is why "servile" is so important - it goes back to Egypt. We aren't supposed to be slaves man, and at least one day will go to rset and devotion. This is why Sabbath was made for MAN, not the other way around.

Do you the Pharisees were right, and Christ violated the Sabbath by healing? That was their accusation, so did Christ sin?

Look if its a sin for you to generate electricity on the Sabbath it is sin for someone else. If you use it on the Sabbath it is also doing business. Nehemiah told some merchants if they even appeared at the gate of the city he would have them killed. So if your electric meter turns you are both requiring someone to work on the Sabbath and doing business on account.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Are you SERVING someone using electricity?

Turning on the lights, using napkins, driving a car, using a phone, etc. - those little Sabbath rules and regulations by MAN make the Sabbath a burden, and warp it's purpose.

NO SERVILE WORK. Egypt was SERVILE work. This is why "servile" is so important - it goes back to Egypt. We aren't supposed to be slaves man, and at least one day will go to rset and devotion. This is why Sabbath was made for MAN, not the other way around.

Do you the Pharisees were right, and Christ violated the Sabbath by healing? That was their accusation, so did Christ sin?

Since when is saying stretch out your hand work?

If you hire/pay anyone they are your servant doing servile work. This is forbidden by the fourth commandment as found in Ex 20.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

What is unclear is whether or not you believe the pharisees believed Christ''s "work" on the Sabbath was SERVILE, and actually broke the law.

In other words, do you believe Christ broke the law of the Sabbath healing people. You have not made yourself clear on that at all.

But, let not get ahead of the topic: I want to see where in the bible Christ SPECIFICALLY says that God''s law is null, void or inert to be followed. You have NOT provided that yet: you have provided circumlocution in the context of a quote here or there From Christ, and interpretations from other people.

But, I have yet to see anything in the bible, apocryphal or otherwise that even insinuates Christ, or God said the 10 commandments are null, void or inert to be followed. So, that is what I am asking for - not a long post or lecture. just show me one verse where Christ or God specifically says the 10 commandments are done away with, and I will drop it with prejudice. Otherwise, you are being reckless telling people this type of information without backing from God or Christ.

So, please show me. No more humans or interpretation. Just show me verses from Christ or God Himself.

You are knowingly asking for details not provided in order to disbelieve. All the applicable passages have been posted enough most of us have them memorized.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Paul said this. I want to see it from Christ, not a human interpretation or description. As I said before, the disciples had their own infighting and doctrine disagreements. I am not interested in what Paul said on this matter because it is out of his spiritual jurisdiction; he cannot create or remove laws, and he cannot judge the soul for law breakers.

I asked specifically for Christ''s words, or God''s word - not man, or interpretation of man.

GOD specifically said the 10 commandments, and so on. Only He (or the literal Word of God) can amend them in any way. But, they always make that clear.

What God would be nebulous about the laws it's people needs to follow - essentially damning them through ignorance? God is not a god of ignorance; if He wanted us to know the 10 commandments are done away with, He would explicitly say so as He has always done and ways will.

So. Where does Christ or God explicitly say the 10 commandments are done away with?

NOT Paul, Peter, John, David, Enoch, Moses, Levi, Joshua, Jeremiah, etc. - unless in their chapters there is something about the OP that begins with, "And the LORD God said..."

IOW you are saying the writing of Paul is not from God. What else is there to say? You don't accept Christian Holy Writ and call yourself a Christian. How?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Let's start here: Jesus stated the law and the prophets were until John... The Law ENDED with John; Which part of that is unclear? Jesus is clearly stating that the law of Moses ceases with john: as since that time the kingdom of God is being preached; and when did that start? once Jesus came out of the wilderness he began to preach the gospel of the kingdom. But why did the law and the prophets end with John? BECAUSE JOHN BAPTIZED JESUS and that was his anointing ceremony: where he entered his office as King.

The Law and the prophets were until John. John was dead when Jesus made that statement. The law of Moses was not after John, it ended with John and the Kingdom began. You asked for a statement that clearly show the law of Moses ended by Jesus it is right there and add that to all the other evidence and what you are unwilling to admit still doesn't change. You see you have placed your beliefs in a false idea and you feel the need to defend your false beliefs, as you have promoted them for so long you are afraid that you have mislead others and you yourself have been mislead, and so instead of acknowledging the evidence that is clear: you refuse to take the vail from off your eyes.

2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

I had an SDA friend who said he had to much invested in his belief to give it up.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Your frame of reference is all wrong.

Christ clearly said that He came to fulfill the law.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (This is confirmed by the word "till" in Galatians 3:19)

The Sinai covenant was made at Sinai with the Children of Israel.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The ten commandments are the Sinai covenant.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The Sinai covenant was not made before Sinai.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

The children of Israel broke the Sinai covenant.

Christ is the only one who kept the Sinai covenant.

If a building contractor fulfills a contract to build a house, the contract is fulfilled, not destroyed.

Christ is the only one who could fulfill the Sinai covenant.

Once a contract to build a house is completed, that contract becomes "obsolete" Hebrews 8:13.

Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

We are under a new covenant and thus a new contract.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Let go of the Old covenant. You cannot keep it. If you could, Christ's death at Calvary would not have been necessary.

We are under the Law of Christ.

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For me this passage seals the deal -

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. LK 24

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Fulfilling the law doesn't mean destruction or nullification of the Law. It means Christ did what we couldnt, and fulfilled every single thing God asked of Him, and the prophets foretold.

Christ said not one piece or iota of the law will be gone until heaven and earth are destroyed. This conflicts with the suggestions that He ended the Law.

There is still no direct reference that can match the OP from Christ. Where does He say, "The 10 commandments are done away with; don't have tk follow them anymore." Even the disciples followed the Law after His death.


It shouldn't take paragraphs of circumlocution from other people to validly show Christ said what the OP is saying.

As I said, if you find it in other sources I am all ears, but so far I have seen nothing suggesting Christ contradicts Gods word. He didn't violate the Sabbath or Justice Laws, and so I have no reason to believe He would suggest the 10 commandments are done away with.

That, so far, sounds like doctrine of men.

When any contract (covenant) is completed it can also said to be fulfilled. Upon completion /fulfillment, it has no further use.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The NT was written long after Christ was born, and died and went to heaven. As we all know by now.

The Nt writers never argued that God's Ten Commandments were abolished by the birth or baptism of Christ - as we all know by now.

Even your own pro-sunday scholars admit that the Ten Commandments still apply to all Christians.

This is a Bible detail - that almost everyone can see for themselves.

Sure just throw out anything you wish to not believe.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Grace in and of itself nullifies the law of commanments, lol. We're under the law of the Spirit where he writes God's love in the fleshy tables of the heart. The bible does say the law is spiritual Rom. 7:14. The 10c's are not spiritual.

They at least pretend to not understand this.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The question asked was, were does Christ or God explicitly say the 10 commandments are done away with?

Those are all the epistles (letters) of Paul.

Luke is not an epistle of Paul. Neither is John.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jesus didn't know what he was talking about when he said if you love him you'll keep his commands?

Sure thing. After all God is ignorant. ehehehehe said TIC. Oh yeah maybe you don't consider Jesus, God.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jesus himself is enough to have settled the debate himself.
Jesus was asked, what must I do to inherit eternal life? Matthew 19:17-19.


When Jesus mission was to die so as to be the final sacrifice in the ceremonial law that would be done away after he was put on the last altar, and he knew this, why would he tell someone before it was done that the way to inherit eternal life was to keep his commands? And then list all that any Jew would be familiar with in the list of the 10 commandments?

The argument against the ten commandments that some espouse is a waste of time. And it is also a waste of time to argue against such when Jesus also spoke to the ten commandments being valid and in force himself.
See, the anti-ten commandments argument claims the ten commands are done away. Someone even said they're defunct. That Jesus destroyed the ten commandments when he died on the cross and became sin. But that isn't what Jesus said.

Matthew 5:17 proves that is untruth.
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill”

Jesus was the embodiment of the law. Every one of the the ten commandments pertain to love of and for God, or love of and for one another.
For instance picking random commands to make the point here. If you love your neighbor as yourself you do not covet their spouse.
If you love God you do not worship any other god. If you love your parents you honor your parents. If you love your neighbor as yourself you do not lie about your neighbor. You do not murder your neighbor. You do not steal from your neighbor.

Think then about what is being said when someone tells you none of that is true anymore.

Your idea is that Jesus came to preserve the law. You can not prove this and is why you take the negative approach to establish your false doctrine.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, well, Bugkiller was wrong and spoke ignoring Matthew 5:18. For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus has not come again as yet. So all is not fulfilled. Jesus taught about that in Luke 24:44 also.

So far you have done nothing to refute Lk 24:44 except make some wild claim. The Greek will bear what I said as true. There are some version that leave out the last 2 words of the verse and for a reason - to deceive anyone who wants to be deceived.

Moses was the deliverer of God's commandments. And being Jesus was sent to deliver the new covenant that was extended by God's grace to all the world, meaning everyone alive in the world. So contrary to bugkillers assertion, that includes the Jew and the "gentile Christian".

No sir the OC was not extended/revised or amended, it was replaced as promised and testified to by Jesus the Christ, only begotten Son of God. God is His Father and as such Jesus is God (the Son).

When Jesus in his ministry was asked by one, notice there is no identity given to the one? Not describing there a man, not woman, not that they were a Jew, or a Gentile. But they are referred to as "one", (KJV) in Matthew 19:16. Jesus when he was traveling in Judea he was asked by one, good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And Jesus answered: (17)And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You're simply amazing. Are you reading anything you post?

When Jesus, who was God, came to save the world he came to save everyone. When his teachings reiterated there in Matthew were in answer to the question about achieving life, Jesus gave his commands to all. The Jew and the Gentile. But there is no divide among those communities, some would say tribes, anymore being we are all one in Christ Jesus.

You really think this makes your above point valid? The interaction of Jesus was with a gentile it was noted. Otherwise it was with an Israelite.

The argument, again, that the ten are done away is false. Jesus reiterated expressly to the question as to what must be done to achieve life. The life he ministered. Therefore the ten are not defunct. They are not done away. They cannot be said to no longer apply.
Jesus himself proved that in Matthew. And he stated it in Matthew 5:17. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” .

NOPE!!!!!

If the commands were destroyed, that verse is a lie. But it's not. Jesus was not an opponent of the law. He and his Apostles followed the law. Including the observation of the Sabbath. Fulfill cannot mean abolish. Otherwise Matthew 5:17 would read very oddly. "Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to abolish."

No because of LK 24:44.

Fulfill is a Hebrew idiom that means, to carry out.

It also means - to render full, i.e. to complete Jesus said He did this in LK 24:44.

What I think causes a lot of argument among the faithful today is that we try to use modern usage when reading what was written within ancient Hebrew culture.
Jesus delivered his ministry in parables. Idioms were part of that and in fact are all through the Bible. If we read just the words on the page today as they are without knowing that, we read in modern terms and lose the meaning as it was meant to be understood.

This is where the Holy Spirit comes in. The bible is not written for the unbeliever. It should be noted I did not say the unregenerate.

bugkiller