~That which is perfect~

sunlover1 said:

wow. you have a boatload of arguments
How bout this one..

Tongues is for giving thanks to God (V 17)
And for blessing (V 16)
And for SINGING! (V 15)
And for PRAYING (V 14)
And NO one is taught by tongues (V 19)
Proving it wasn't just another language

And this passage right here says SO much about what tongues are and are not:

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:
I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned
say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding,
that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.



Another neat thing about this is that it shows God's love for us
is SO big that, rather than being blessed by our thanksgiving
and prayer.. He wants our BROTHER to be blessed.

Beloved, let us love one another!

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pssssst sunlover:
do a little historical research on the Corinthians, k?
wonder why that particular group was having issues?
~ child

sunlover1 said:

That's Scripture for ya


Yes some discussion will be interesting.
Although we're not doing bad by ourselves

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you guys are cute

sunlover1 said:

AS Christ is in this world.
I want to be AS Christ is... in this world.

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That's correct, and another witness to this,..

1Jn 4:17 Herein is love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, even so are we in this world.

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That's when love is perfected.

Frogster said:

Child of Jesus, is teaching over? Is serving over? Seems like you press the gifts word too much, Paul uses it generally, unless you think serving is over. Note the prophecy word right in there.

Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;

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hi frogmeister.

the Corinthian church had lots of issues. Paul had a heck of a time getting them to do things orderly. did you know they were new converts from paganism? do you know what they used to do in their religious activities?

what i don't get is why the Miracle of people who hadn't previously spoken, say, Arabic or Cantonese suddenly being able to do so is not enough of a Miracle for some? why does it have to be something else?

i find it a thrilling MIRACLE and an AWESOME display of The Holy Spirit's Power, and for a specific reason!

anyways....here's just an example of what mainstream Christianity has pretty much always believed concerning "tongues":


1 Corinthians 14:19


I had rather ... - It is probable that in the Christian assembly, usually, there were few who understood foreign languages. Paul, therefore, would not speak in a foreign language when its only use would be mere display. With my understanding - So as to be intelligible to others; so that I might understand it, and so that at the same time others might be benefitted.
Barne's


than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue; than to deliver ever so long an oration in a language not understood by them, which could be of no use unto them; for though they might hear his voice, the sound of his words, yet thereby he could not teach and instruct them to their profit, unless they understood the language which he spoke; and therefore five words understood were more likely to be of use than ten thousand spoken in a strange language
Gill's

anyways....
enuff for me now...
still friends froggy?
~ child

simonthezealot said:

I'm saying that if i said i possessed the gift of tongues or healing or whatever, then that is not God moving freely as He wills in us...It is more like us summoning him which is tantamount to i'll say this quietly cuz some of my best friends are charismatics, sorcery.

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Simon, there are certainly gifts that GOD operates only by the will of The Holy Spirit, for example the working of miracles/powers, but the gift has to be there for Him to operate it.

He doesn't give something and take it back, and then give it again, and take it back again, repeat and rinse. That's not how they are described in use by the scriptures.

child of Jesus said:

hi simon!
yes, he is....

if you haven't already listened, you will enjoy this series : A SURVEY OF HERESIES

A Survey of Heresies by Phil Johnson

the judaizers were the first to manifest in the early Church and Phil does an AMAZING run through Galatians.

love in Jesus,
~ child

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What is your witness? Why do you believe what you do about God? Who taught you?

Telling people they can’t be walking in the gifts of the Holy Spirit when they say he or she does, just is telling them they lie or are hearing from Satan. Who are you to be able to test that? Is your understanding of scripture so superior to others? If so why do you think so?

Jesus called me into his ministry, and has audibly called me by name.

I believed it was Jesus speaking and teaching me because I was given the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Also there came a peace along with the words.

Over the years I can see that it is the fruit that comes from following Jesus that truly lets one know who he or she is following.

If one is still deliberately committing sin then it is not God who he or she is following.

Dr.Strangelove said:

Again, if something is really popular does that make it right?

Drugs are really popular. Pop music is really popular. UFC is really popular.

We're told the whole world will be decieved, if possible even the very elect.

Saying the whole of Christendom is embracing Pentacostal theology should make you very wary of that system not encouraged to be part of it.

Where do you think the 'falling away' from the true faith is happening Drew?

In the churches maybe? Where the false teachers are? Just a wild guess.

I will be blessed if I can continue in the minority. PLEASE God keep me there!

We will be joined by the multitude of NEW saints that will come out of the great tribulation.

Of course, most of you guys no doubt think that the entire church will be removed before the trib starts (**groan**).

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Amen Doc!
i pray the same.

funny how the Pente goes with dispies, which has the pretrib, which.....tsk....whatever.

love in Jesus,
~ child

Giver said:

Over the years I can see that it is the fruit that comes from following Jesus that truly lets one know who he or she is following.

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You bring up a good point here Giver.

What fruit is being manifested here?

Child of Jesus said:

i'll post shortly my research on the history of Pentecostalism. hopefully you can see if i'm in error.

it goes a little further back than Copeland's daddy in diapers...

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Child of Jesus: Since I doubt that your "historical research" will go all the way back to GOD'S INSTITUTION OF PENTECOST, but suspect that your "historical research" will only go back to some misrepresentations of what GOD INSTITUTED, I'll take it upon myself to view Pentecost FROM GOD'S PERSPECTIVE and see how it relates to not only Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, but also how it relates to EVERY CHRISTIAN TODAY. Here goes:

"These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD. And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be for a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD..." (Leviticus 23:4-17)

There is an introduction to God's first 4 of 7 feasts...

1. Passover
2. Unleavened Bread
3. Firstfruits
4. Pentecost

Whether you're aware of it or not, Paul addressed the significance of these 4 Springtime feasts in the lives of New Testament believers in his first epistle to the Corinthians. For example, regarding Passover/Unleavened Bread, we read:

"Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the old leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (I Corinthians 5:6-8)

Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. Jesus Christ, in perfect fulfillment of the Old Testament type, was crucified on the Jewish feast of Passover. For those of us who have truly partaken of this "Lamb", we are commanded to remove all "leaven" from our lives. "Leaven" is symbolic of sin or anything that would cause us to "rise up" in rebellion against God. In keeping with the idea of "leaven", Paul also admonishes his Corinthian hearers/readers not to be "puffed up" several different times throughout his epistle. Moving on to the feast of Firstfruits, we read:

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become THE FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (I Corinthians 15:19-23)

In the midst of his discourse regarding Christ's resurrection from the dead, Paul twice refers to Him as "the firstfruits". This is no coincidence. As with Passover, Paul understood that Christ was risen from the dead on the Jewish feast of Firstfruits, persfectly fulfilling the Old Testament type. Also, as both the Old Testament type and the New Testament antitype clearly show, Christ was raised from the dead "the morrow AFTER the Sabbath". In other words, although I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist, there is no justifiable reason in scripture to change the Sabbath from "the seventh day" to "the first day". Those who have/do, inevitably claim that it was done partly (at least) because it is now supposedly commemorating the day that Christ rose from the dead. Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. Christ rose from the dead on "the morrow AFTER the Sabbath".

Now we come to Pentecost which, according to what we read in Leviticus chapter 23, occured exactly 50 days after Firstfruits or exactly 50 days after Christ's resurrection from the dead which is what Firstfruits foreshadowed. With this in mind, consider the following:

"The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, BEING SEEN OF THEM FORTY DAYS, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE." (Acts 1:1-5)

Jesus showed Himself alive to His disciples for 40 days after His resurrection or for 40 days after the feast of Firstfruits that foreshadowed His resurrection. That left exactly 10 more days until the feast of Pentecost could/would come. Since Jesus was more than aware that this feast needed to be fulfilled on its literal calendar day as well, He instructed His disciples to tarry at Jerusalem until they be "endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). After they obeyed Jesus and prayed in the upper room for 10 days, we read:

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come..." (Acts 2:1)

You know the rest of the story. Anyhow, it seems rather apparent to me that Paul also had the feast of Pentecost in mind when he was giving his instructions to the Corinthians about spiritual gifts. Before asking you a couple of questions, I'll also briefly mention the following:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of BLOWING OF TRUMPETS, an holy convocation." (Leviticus 23:23-24)

The 4 Springtime feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost) all found their fulfillment in Christ at Christ's FIRST COMING. It's pretty safe to assume that the remaining 3 Falltime feasts will also find their fulfillment in Christ at Christ's SECOND COMING. With this fairly safe assumption in mind, I'll heartily suggest to you that Paul also had this feast of Trumpets in mind when he wrote to the Corinthians:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (I Corinthians 15:51-52)

Here, then, are my two questions for you:

1. Since it seems rather apparent that Paul had the Jewish feasts of Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Trumpets in mind when he was writing his first epistle to the Corinthians, are you willing to consider that he did, in fact, also have the feast of Pentecost in mind when he was writing to the Corinthians about spiritual gifts?

2. Does the fulfillment of Passover apply to ALL BELIEVERS TODAY or just some? In other words, do we ALL need to partake of the True Passover Lamb? What about Unleavened Bread? Do we ALL need to remove "leaven" from our lives or just a select few? What about "firstfruits"? Do we ALL need to believe in Christ's resurrection from the dead in order to be saved or is such a belief optional? What about "the last trump" and what it signifies? Do we ALL need to have a hope in our own resurrection from the dead or is this some mere triviality? Hopefully, you've answered "YES!" to each of these 4 questions. With such a hope, I ask the following:

Does Pentecost apply TO ALL OF US as well or just to those before the scriptures were compiled?

Something else for you (and others) to hopefully ponder.

Take care.

Ih8s8n said:

Child of Jesus: Did you even read my post to Dr.Strangelove? If so, then there's definitely more than "one thing" that he's wrong about and they are all BIG deals.

i think Doc's theology is pretty sound.

"Proud charismatics"? I'll let that go for now and address it at a later time when I address this whole issue from a strictly scriptural standpoint.

good. can i do the same?

In other words, whereas you've pulled "the old switcheroo" by setting up the strawman of the likes of Copeland and Browne,

strawmen?
did i pay those men to represent Pentecostalism?
did i put them on YouTube?
do i send them tithe money?
am i among the MILLIONS that believe, support and follow them?

they are considered legitimate by MILLIONS who call themselves Christians.

rather than evade THAT fact by trying to pin THEIR apostasy on me because i hold them up to scrutiny, please address it scripturally: are the followers of those men DECEIVED? and if so, how did it happen?

i am not really addressing those 2 men: ITS THE UNTOLD MILLIONS WHO BELIEVE AND EMULATE THEM. Please address how that HAPPENED?

I'll stick with what the scriptures actually teach on the topic and not lean upon false teachers to denounce true teachings from scripture.

with all due respect, the issue for me IS FALSE TEACHERS.

it isn't a fruitful discussion if we can not aknowledge and address how these false teachers managed to get into the church and deceive millions. are these lying signs and wonders?

i want to know what it is that differentiates their activity from true manifestations, and how one discerns this.

particularly, if the followers of those men can be deceived, can not others as well who claim these same gifts?

a straight answer would lead to a truly fruitful discussion, mutually respectful.

i wish to know how, if they are false teachers, so many millions haven't figured that out. should we care? is it STRONG DELUSION sent by God Himself (2 Thess 2)? could be very serious.

the fact that you admit they are charlatans PROVES that i and others have very valid concerns. these are very serious matters.

Anyhow, since you refer to yourself as a "Child of Jesus", what do you do with verses such as these in relation to our "righteousness"?

and here it comes.

you feel defensive over the topic (which you in this post admit is a valid concern for some of us, since you say in so many words these men are fakes)....so now it's about ME, and my unrighteousness, MY sinfulness.

but that's okay. i'm used to this from the Charismatic crowd. it ALWAYS comes down to this. don't address the millions of deceived "Christians" who follow those wolves: address the one who QUESTIONS IT.

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (I John 2:29)

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoso ever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (I John 3:7-10)

Are you "doing righteousness"? If not, then you'd better either start "PERFECTING HOLINESS in the fear of God" (II Corinthians 7:1) or change your username.

are you "doing righteousness"? should i take your word for it?

Whether you're aware of it or not, you're basically asking me by what name am I called.

i know what i asked you.

which denomination did you learn about these gifts from?
but you folks won't answer that.

if you could tell me the name of your College, your teachers, your denomination....anything, i could do as i am commanded to do and test all things.

I am called by the name of Jesus Christ, as His is the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

Amen.

is it okay for me to claim His Name also?

or are you able to discern via cyberspace i'm not "doing righteousness" enough? is it because i question men and their MILLIONS of deceived followers you even admit is real?

why the 'tude, bro'? don't taze me.

That's always been my genuine position and it will never change. At the same time, since I understand what you're after, I have seen many things that have taken place within professing Christendom over the last 22+ years (since I've become a Christian) and especially some of the abominations that have been falsely attributed to "the gifts of the Spirit". And? Do such conterfeit movements cancel out that which is true? Of course, they do not.

as a matter of fact, they may send people to hell.

and they may keep poor sinners from coming to Christ becase a sinner KNOWS OCCULT acitivity when they see it.

so your brushing aside of these abominations when we genuinely seek to address them for The Kingdom's sake is sad.

do you think you're the only righteous Christian on the planet trying to obey and test the spirits and walk in His paths?

we get ridiculed and called flamers, and our salvation is questioned: BECAUSE we are trying to discern.

Anyhow, in regards to what is true, I'll address that in a future post where I'll primarily look at "What saith the Lord"...as opposed to "What saith Copeland, Browne...or even you".

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or even YOU.
don't use intimidation with me.
just reason and intelligence is fine.

are you claiming to be a prophet also?

in case you didn't know, one of the ways we discern what is true is by discerning what is FALSE. this is a GIFT, but we must USE ITso i won't be shushed away from doing so.

sunlover1 said:

Gifts have ceased remember?

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I don't recall a gift of discernment listed in scripture either.