Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[Icyspark]

1Jn 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


.

Hi BABerean2,

It appears to me that you are conflating the agreement/covenant with what was agreed upon. What was agreed upon (i.e. the law) was not obsolete. Rather Paul says the law IS "holy, righteous and good." This is not a past tense statement regarding the law being obsolete and which WAS fading away.

Could you look at Hebrews 8 and tell me the provided God-given reason for the necessity of a new covenant/agreement? Here's a hint: Where did God find fault?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

I'm asking if whether you Love Him by keeping His commandments? All commandments..yes or No

If you keep His commandments then Yes you're sinless don't you think?

Hi pasifika,

It is when you are living "by the Spirit" that you are truly sinless. When we let go of the Spirit and live according to the flesh that is when we sin.

Romans 8:13, 14
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.​

So we can tell when we are connected or disconnected from the Spirit based on our deeds or misdeeds.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[BABerean2]

Hi BABerean2,

It appears to me that you are conflating the agreement/covenant with what was agreed upon. What was agreed upon (i.e. the law) was not obsolete. Rather Paul says the law IS "holy, righteous and good." This is not a past tense statement regarding the law being obsolete and which WAS fading away.

Could you look at Hebrews 8 and tell me the provided God-given reason for the necessity of a new covenant/agreement? Here's a hint: Where did God find fault?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

We are not come to Mount Sinai in verse 18 below.
We are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in verses 22-24.

This is a clear contrast between the two covenants.


Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


.

 

[pasifika]

How do most people define "keep" His commandments? The Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to "guard, observe, watch over." - Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard

If "keep" was defined as "flawlessly obey 100% of the time" then only those who have done so would be sinless, yet only Jesus Christ was sinless and flawlessly obeyed the commandments 100% of the time.

Hello @Danthemailman, my take on "keep" the commandments means is to obey 100% everytime, and you're right Jesus was the only man who had done so..So in order for us to do the same is only when His Spirit lives in us and this will take time..
That's why I asked the question to @BobRyan if He keeps all commandments at this point in time (100% of the time)..

 

[pasifika]

Hi pasifika,

It is when you are living "by the Spirit" that you are truly sinless. When we let go of the Spirit and live according to the flesh that is when we sin.

Romans 8:13, 14
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.​

So we can tell when we are connected or disconnected from the Spirit based on our deeds or misdeeds.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Hello @Icyspark, can some of the deeds or misdeeds of the body which are listed in Galatians 5:19-25?

 

[Icyspark]

Hello @Icyspark, can some of the deeds or misdeeds of the body which are listed in Galatians 5:19-25?

Hi pasifika,

That's certainly a "good" bad list. However that is not an all-inclusive list. What about including this in your list?

Romans 7:7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”​

Paul says he wouldn't even know what sin was if not for the law. Then he quotes one of the Ten Commandment covenant. So is coveting still a "misdeed of the body"? And would you suggest that Paul's point here is to isolate coveting as the only one of the Ten that still points out sin?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[pasifika]

Hi pasifika,

That's certainly a "good" bad list. However that is not an all-inclusive list. What about including this in your list?

Romans 7:7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not saomand id, “You shall not covet.”​

Paul says he wouldn't even know what sin was if not for the law. Then he quotes one of the Ten Commandment covenant. So is coveting still a "misdeed of the body"? And would you suggest that Paul's point here is to isolate coveting as the only one of the Ten that still points out sin?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Sure, it also included..put it this way as in James 4:17..If anyone then knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is Sin for them...

Coveting is a misdeed of the body just as stealing, murder, etc but Paul just give coveting as an example of Sin as in Romans 7

 

[Icyspark]

We are not come to Mount Sinai in verse 18 below.
We are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in verses 22-24.

This is a clear contrast between the two covenants.


Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


.

Hi BABerean2,

I don't think you're getting my point. The point is that a covenant is simply an agreement. The old covenant/agreement took place at "the mountain ... that burned with fire," when the people agreed to do all that the Lord had said:

Exodus 19:8
The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.

Exodus 24:3
When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything the Lord has said we will do.”​

Again I suggest that you look at the new covenant as discussed in Hebrews 8 and determine where God found fault. Here's a new clue: Was the fault with His perfect law, or rather was it with the people and their promise to obey?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[pasifika]

Hi BABerean2,

I don't think you're getting my point. The point is that a covenant is simply an agreement. The old covenant/agreement took place at "the mountain ... that burned with fire," when the people agreed to do all that the Lord had said:

Exodus 19:8
The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.

Exodus 24:3
When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything the Lord has said we will do.”​

Again I suggest that you look at the new covenant as discussed in Hebrews 8 and determine where God found fault. Here's a new clue: Was the fault with His perfect law, or rather was it with the people and their promise to obey?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Hi, you made this good point regarding the old covenant, in which the "people" will do everything what the Lord said ...(as you quoted Exodus 19)...

Under the new covenant Only God will do everything that He promised.. that's the difference! (People has no part to play in regards to their salvation, because they cannot submit to God's law as a result of their sins)

The old covenant law was based on the people works ("works of the law") in which no one can be declared Righteous as a result of their works...

 

[Danthemailman]

Hello @Danthemailman, my take on "keep" the commandments means is to obey 100% everytime, and you're right Jesus was the only man who had done so..So in order for us to do the same is only when His Spirit lives in us and this will take time.. That's why I asked the question to @BobRyan if He keeps all commandments at this point in time (100% of the time)..

Well only Jesus Christ has obeyed the commandments 100% of the time and if "keep" means obey 100% of the time, then the rest of us are disqualified and we have a problem with only two solutions. Either "keep" means (guard, observe, watch over) and does not imply perfect obedience 100% of the time or only in Christ, having received the righteousness of God which is through faith (Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith) are believers seen in the eyes of God as having obeyed 100% of the time. We can't have it both ways.

 

[Danthemailman]

Hi Danthemailman,

Jesus says sin no more.

Jesus was telling the adulterous woman in John 8:11 to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery. Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit."

John says not to sin.
Paul says stop sinning.
Peter says stop sinning.
Sinners don't have to sin.

This is what we are to strive for, even though none of us are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time.

My question for you is--setting Jesus out of this equation--which one of these Bible authors was flawlessly keeping the commandments 100% of the time?

None of them. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)
Only Jesus Christ has met that standard. (Hebrews 4:15)

If they were not sinless, then why do you not reject each of them and the entirety of their messages based on the fact that they are hypocritically admonishing others to stop sinning?

They are not being hypocrites. They too desire to strive for that standard. Why set the bar low?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Have you flawlessly obeyed the commandments 100% of the time? which brings me back to my first post. What does it mean to "keep" His commandments?

I’m not sure what I do or don’t do has any relation why we should obey God. We are not judged based on a sliding scale or judged based on what I do. Each of us will be accountable for our own deeds.

Jesus said: To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Revelation 3:21

I believe we have a fair and just God, just like God’s law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Romans 7:12

God would not ask us do to something that we will be judged by James 2:10-12 if it was impossible to do. Believe- ALL things are possible with God. Matthew 19:26

If you have sin in your life that you want to overcome give it to God. Ask for the Holy Spirit to help you overcome. If you fall get back up. Ask God to replace His will for yours. He can’t help unless one asks and one wants to make the change. All things are possible with God and God is greater than ones sin, not the opposite.

 

[BABerean2]

Each of us will be accountable for our own deeds.

Because of the cross of Calvary, I will not be held accountable for my deeds.

When the Father now sees me, He sees the blood of His righteous Son.

I am a sinner saved by Grace, and a child of the most High God through the Son. I will inherit the promise made to Abraham through the One Seed found in Galatians 3:16-29.


Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


.

 

[pasifika]

Well only Jesus Christ has obeyed the commandments 100% of the time and if "keep" means obey 100% of the time, then the rest of us are disqualified and we have a problem with only two solutions. Either "keep" means (guard, observe, watch over) and does not imply perfect obedience 100% of the time or only in Christ, having received the righteousness of God which is through faith (Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith) are believers seen in the eyes of God as having obeyed 100% of the time. We can't have it both ways.

Yes the rest of us will all disqualified in keeping the commandments 100% of the time in our flesh (old man), so in order to keep the commandments we have to be "born again" not of flesh, but of the Spirit so God through His Spirit will enable us to walk according to His law and keep ALL commandments...

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Because of the cross of Calvary, I will not be held accountable for my deeds.

When the Father now sees me, He sees the blood of His righteous Son.

I am a sinner saved by Grace, and a child of the most High God through the Son. I will inherit the promise made to Abraham through the One Seed found in Galatians 3:16-29.


Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


.

Faith is why we keep the law Romans 3:31 believe in the teachings of Jesus- To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Revelation 3:21.

You don’t keep the law to be saved, you keep the law because its a fruit of ones faith. It’s a good way to tell what spirit one is walking with. Sin (breaking the law) does not come from God 1 John 3:8 the Spirit is given to keep the law John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32 and the commandments is what points out sin so we know what not to do. Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20, James 2:10-12

No everyone is going to be saved according to scripture and today we can make adjustments in our life so we can walk with Jesus in Truth and Spirit.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

We are told to follow the example of Jesus who kept the Sabbath and all of His Fathers commandments. Luke 4:16-22, John 15:10

 

[BABerean2]

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

His commandments are found in the next chapter.


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Are there two separate sets of commandments in the verse below?

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


You said...

"Each of us will be accountable for our own deeds."

Are you going to be judged for your own deeds? If you are, what will be the verdict?

.
I am not going to be judged

 

[SabbathBlessings]

His commandments are found in the next chapter.


1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


Are there two separate sets of commandments in the verse below?

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


You said...

"Each of us will be accountable for our own deeds."

Are you going to be judged for your own deeds? If you are, what will be the verdict?

.
I am not going to be judged

Jesus quoted verbatim from the Ten often so lets let Jesus speak for Himself. Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:19-30. To believe in Jesus means to believe in His teachings not just to “believe”. The devil believes and according to scripture he will not be saved.

Please show me in scripture where Jesus said to do something different than the example that He left for us? Jesus kept the Sabbath, He kept the Ten Commandments as our example.


Jesus is our righteous Judge and we will all stand before Him come judgement day.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus kept the Sabbath, He kept the Ten Commandments as our example.

Did Jesus keep the Sabbath according to your standards in the passage below?

Did Jesus work on the Sabbath day and was it legal for Jesus to work on the Sabbath day?

Is it now legal for New Covenant believers to work on the Sabbath day, just as Christ did in the passage below?

The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath

Joh 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Joh 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
Joh 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
Joh 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
Joh 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
Joh 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Joh 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
Joh 5:11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
Joh 5:13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Did Jesus keep the Sabbath according to your standards in the passage below?

Did Jesus work on the Sabbath day and was it legal for Jesus to work on the Sabbath day?

Is it now legal for New Covenant believers to work on the Sabbath day, just as Christ did in the passage below?

The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath

Joh 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Joh 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
Joh 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
Joh 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
Joh 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
Joh 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
Joh 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Joh 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
Joh 5:11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
Joh 5:13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

.

I hope you’re not being like one of the Pharasee’s and insinuating that Jesus broke the Sabbath and sinned. The work of Jesus is not secular His work is the work of His Father.

How was the Sabbath kept according to Jesus and the apostles as our example?

Jesus as our example was in the Temple reading the Word of God on the Sabbath Luke 4:16-22. Just like His Father said the Sabbath is a holy convocation Lev 23:3 (a holy assembly to worship God)

Another example from the apostles:
Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. Acts 16:13

We have from Jesus going to the Temple reading God’s Word as our example on the Sabbath. Whole cities came together hearing the Word of God on the Sabbath. Paul said prayer on the Sabbath was customarily. So we have prayer and reading and hearing God’s Word on the Sabbath as examples.

This fits right in with everything we have been told about the Sabbath to keep it holy. To put away our earthy pleasures and honor our Lord and Savior on His holy, blessed and sanctified day.

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

 

[BABerean2]

I hope you’re not being like one of the Pharasee’s and insinuating that Jesus broke the Sabbath and sinned.

I did not say Jesus sinned.

The text of John chapter 5 has Jesus saying He worked on the Sabbath day in John 5:17.

Can you explain why it was legal for Jesus to work on the Sabbath day?


.