Hi Bob S,
This right here is the problem. This is a post modern mindset in which a person chooses to believe their own "truth". In your case you reference Scripture but said Scripture has nothing directly to do with the assertion you make.
Sorry spark, it is your assumption that I believe once saved always saved. Jn 3:16 is one of many new covenant promises we all should claim. It is your belief system that claims we have to keep the Sabbath of the old covenant in order to be saved. There is not one word in all scripture that makes that claim. Abraham was not saved because he kept laws and neither were the Israelites. If any of them are lost it is because they lost their faith.
Thank you for giving me your permission to express my opinion.
You are welcome. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what your opinion is we still have to find the real truth from scripture and your opinion doesn't match with scripture.
Unfortunately (for you) my opinion is based on what the Scriptures actually say,
Ask any denomination and they will spout the same rhetoric.
versus a post modern mindset in which the individual gets to determine what is their own "truth".
Post modern?? Whatever that means. At least I don't take my cue from one of many 19th century prophets.
I likewise believe that temptation is not sin. However, I believe your position doesn't embrace the actual position of
1 Corinthians 10:13.
There you go again, making an opinion that you have no right to make.
Jesus is the way out in that He PROVIDES "a way out." The provision to avoid the temptation and ultimately the sin is left for us to embrace or deny. Satan cannot compel us to sin and neither does Jesus compel us to remain faithful.
I wrote: "You mean when we do sin Jesus is the way out. Being tempted is not sinning." It seems like you either deny what I write or you have to differ in some way. You just cannot leave well enough alone. We will never, on this sinful Earth, come to the place where we can "avoid" temptation. It is there and we have to deal with it. I am thankful for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the gift that Jesus gave each of us. Read 2Cor3: 6-11.
The decision is ours to make. If the temptation is behind door #1, Jesus then provides door #2 as a way to avoid the temptation.
Could you provide some scripture to prove your point?
No one is irresistibly compelled to open door #1 and if indeed Jesus Christ is in them then they will indeed choose door #2. If they choose door #1 then they are revealing that Jesus Christ is NOT in them and that they have
failed the test.
WOW! Where did you get that belief? Do you ever choose door #1? If you never have then you really do not need Jesus saving gift. If that is true then according to your prophet you are ready for translation.
First of all, if you're going to make a very specific accusation about something which I've supposedly said then it would behoove you to supply actual reference to something which confirms your accusation (I'm thinking I never said any such thing).
I will never forget it. It was on another forum where we debated the same issues we are debating today. The forum is no longer available.
Josh8:30 Then Joshua built on Mount Ebal an altar to the Lord, the God of Israel, 31 as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded the Israelites. He built it according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses—an altar of uncut stones, on which no iron tool had been used. On it they offered to the Lord burnt offerings and sacrificed fellowship offerings. 32 There, in the presence of the Israelites, Joshua wrote on stones a copy of the law of Moses. 33 All the Israelites, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the Lord, facing the Levitical priests who carried it. Both the foreigners living among them and the native-born were there. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the Lord had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel. That was your answer to 2Cor3:7
Which brings us to point number 2. If you're going to make a very specific accusation you might want to make sure your supplied text reference has something remotely to do with said accusation:
I certainly would if I could. By the way it was not an accusation, it was the truth. I would ask you to do the same.
1 Corinthians 3:6-11
6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
So, according to you, verse 7 has to do with the Ten Commandments?
Sorry spark, I bet you realized I made a mistake and wrote "1" instead of "2". But you just had to make an issue out of it didn't you?
No need, you know what I meant.
What you appear to be forgetting is that I know you and I know what you embrace and teach. I know your tendency is to either redact the Scriptures to remove those portions which don't agree with your preconceived ideas; or you add to the Scriptures things that are not there in order buttress your unbiblical beliefs.
Now you have made an accusation so fill in the blanks. I embrace the New Covenant. The old covenant was never given to gentiles. It was given to one nation and ended at Calvery. Be assured I know what you teach.
In this case you're attempting to use redaction to limit the plurality of God's commandments down to a nebulous belief and love.
Not attempting spark, only doing what Jesus did. Only doing what is taught in the New Testament.
What I recall about you is that one time you shared a very enlightening post in which someone counted all the "commandments" of the New Testament (I can supply evidence for this if you doubt my contention). I think it added up to 1043 commandments. But in your current redactive mindset you appear to be in the mood to deny all these other commandments and focus on the nebulous? That would certainly be in keeping with a post modern, moral relativistic mindset.
Postmodern? Get real with all the big phrases. Love is the pinnacle of the 1043 commandments found in the New Covenant. Love is what our Savior asks of every living human. Love is the greatest theme in all of God's Holy Writ.
1Cor13:
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Jude1:21
keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
Gal5:13
You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. Yep, the 1043 New Covenant laws according to Gal 5:13-15 are summed up with one word, LOVE.
Since Jesus was born human and He was "born under the law," He perfectly obeyed ALL the law. If He disobeyed any of the law He was "born under" then he wouldn't be, he couldn't be the Savior.
My statement was:
John 15 starting with verse 9 is the command Jesus gave us. It is unlike any command ever given in that Jesus is telling us to love others like He loves us. Verse 13 illustrates how great a love we are to have for our fellow man. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. Jesus kept the commands God gave to Israel (the ones that would concern him) and He asks you and me to keep the commands He gave us. In other words, Jesus kept the Sabbaths, weekly and yearly, like God gave them to Israel. His command for us is to love. He didn't tell us to observe rituals God gave to Israel. So, your interpretation of verse 4 is false according to John.
Your answer was: "Since Jesus was born human and He was "born under the law," He perfectly obeyed ALL the law. If He disobeyed any of the law He was "born under" then he wouldn't be, he couldn't be the Savior." You skirted the issue. How about addressing it.
Ok, let's hear what your current position on what the law embraces. From what icy it appears you've redacted down your previous acknowledgement that the New Testament contains 1043 commandments down to your nebulous post modern version of two. Is that correct?
You have that right. John wrote it and I believe it. I am of the truth if I believe the ones God sent to us, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and love others as Jesus loves us. It isn't the rituals of the old covenant that will get us eternal life. I know the prophet, in her books, teaches that if we don't keep the ritual Sabbath of the old covenant that was given to only Israel, we will not receive our eternal reward. Paul certainly didn't teach such a thing. Read Gal3 and especially this verse:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. The prophet would have us relying on our works.
But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control,
we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}
No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath,
can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}
All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them.
If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}
As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised,
Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message,
if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}
On this thread we are not examining these other issues.
Well, they certainly should be examined.
What we are attempting to examine is the fact that--with regard to the Sabbath--these supposedly "ritual laws ... given only to the nation of Israel" were actually and factually for all people and for all this Earth's history.
So, Are you telling me Moses was wrong when he announced in Deut5 the folllowing?
5 Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. If the covenant which contained the ten commandments and especially the fourth one was given to all nations on Earth, why is it that most of all the inhabitants now and in the past have never heard of such a thing? Why didn't God include all the gentiles in His covenant. God certainly knew that His bunch of degenerates would not send people to all the other nations. Jesus came to save all of His children and He never told anyone that their salvation hinged on keeping ritual days nor did He teach the disciples to spread the Sabath to all nations. Care to change your "factually"
Continued
