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Sunday Sabbath?

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Spawn

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D.W. said:
Shalom,

And that prayer is? What are the words in Hebrew and in English. The prayer should be said in Hebrew. Transliteration for those who do not read Hebrew should be best.
What do the candles represent?

G-d Bless,
Dan

they should be in Hebrew according to WHOM? No where does it say that the prayers have to be in Hebrew. sheesh. Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, Who has made us holy through His commandments and commanded us to kindle the Sabbath light.

the candles 1st - remember 2nd - keep and she waves her hands over both before covering her eyes.



OF COURSE - NEITHER of these things is required by the Tanach, only by Talmud the official handbook of pharisitical Judaism.
 
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JustinWindsor

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..of moral teaching throughout the word of God to understand beyond a shadow of a doubt what His moral expectations are of His children. Your argument that - if Christ's blood abolished the Old Covenant as a way to obtain righteousness then we may therefore do all the things the law forbade - is false. The question in this post is "Sunday Sabbath?". It remains that the entirety of Sabbath Law is Old Covenant. Old Covenant Law keeping was never for the Gentile nations, it was for the Hebrew Children alone. Since the cross of Christ the Old Covenant is no longer a means of salvation for Israel either. This is very clear in the Apostles' presentation of the Gospel.

When someone states the above truth - it absolutely does not follow that this leads to antinomianism. It is also abundantly clear in the Apostles' teaching that a child of God, "born from above" will pursue godliness in his lifestyle. May I add to that please, that Paul, when writing to the confused Christians at Corinth, considered them brothers and sisters in the faith. He supported them and loved them, and corrected some very serious error they were following. He didn't once say, "Because you are following error and continue to commit sins you are no longer my brothers." Quite the opposite, he rebuked them and taught them in patience and love.

Being born from above and receiving righteousness by faith, because of the cross of Christ, under the New Covenant, means that a believer is no longer under the: curse of the Old Covenant, bondage of the Old Covenant, tutorship of the Old Covenant, yoke of the Old Covenant, condemnation of the Old Covenant, or ministry of death of the Old Covenant. These things, as stated previously, are abundantly clear throughout the apostles' presentation of the gospel. This truth is crucial to the Gospel, the 'good news'. That's precisely why it was good news. It meant rest from the requirement of the Old Covenant, and that the New Covenant would encompass people from all nations.

A child of God enjoys the promise to Abraham, that the believer will be declared righteous by faith, not works. A child of God is in a new Covenant, the Covenant in Christ's Blood.

silkcity said:
we don't live under the law? i'm surprised! are we to do what we want and still expect to live eternally. if Christ's death abolished the law then is it ok for us to have other gods, make graven images, take God's name in vain, work on saturday, dishonour our parents, kill, adulterate, steal, lie, and covet? here's the thing, i don't know if you're doing it on purpose or what. i said twice that the Sabbath (saturday) is a day of rest. one of you keeps saying that it's a day of worship. that's not what i said. although it is another day of worship as is every other day it is also a day of rest. if you do not want to believe it that's fine. but why go and try to twist the word? you keep contradicting yourselves with the same texts you present to me. "tha sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath". it's as clear as it is. if it was made for man, why are we not to keep it? the texts that i gave you from the bible could not be more clear. and by your arguments it's obvious that you haven't read them. It is written 'God is not a man, that he should lie; neither a son of man, that he should repent...' Numbers 23.19. Why would he give his law and then take it back? Why would he tell us to do something if he didn't mean it? 'For I am the Lord, I change not...' Malachi 3.6. You say he does change. 'Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever.' Hebrews 13.8. Why does Isaiah say that we will keep the Sabbath in the new life? Why did Jesus say that he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it and then destroy it according to you? Is Jesus a liar?
Psalm 19.7,8 'The law of the Lord is perfect...the commandment of the Lord is pure...' Some think it needs tweaking.
There are so many versions of the bible for a reason. Read the history of the translations, look at the origin of the words and the acurate translations. Why have there been so many revisions. Maybe so the Word could fit a certain peoples ideas?
'The works of his hands are verity and judgement; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness....' Psalm 111.7,10

ok, so in conclusion, don't think i'm mad cause by someone's comment it seems that's the impression i left. by no means. i'm just asking questions to make people think. i just recently became a Christian by God's grace and simply wish to share my joy. a large amount of people believe, in respect to the bible, what they here from parents, pastors, or bible teachers without reading for themselves. John 5.39 'Search the scriptures: for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.'sometimes they're led to believe things that have absolutely no biblical basis. i'm simply presenting something that's already been written, without speculating, adding or subtracting, or twisting the word; no excuses, no ifs, ands or buts. Anything you here from anyone, regarding the bible, should be compared with the bible. ok guys, whew, there's so much more to say...but don't have space...anyway, gotta go.
 
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jonwsj

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Spawn said:
The scriptures tell us to REMEMBER the sabbath and to keep it holy. No where in mitzvot is there a command to worship on any set day of the week. In truth, we should worship God EVERY day of the week.

As for what day of the week should a Christian worship - the Lord's Day has been observed on Sundays from the dawn of the Church. The apostles would go to the Synagogue on Saturday and preach to the Jews, but on Sunday they would gather for the agape feast and the Eucharistic feast.

I think the Sunday observance of the early church falls under tradition more than it does under Biblical mandate. Back then their "world" was confined pretty much to just a few time zones, so the sundown-to-sundown requirements could still be obeyed. But nowadays airplanes can take us across the international dateline and cause us to skip the "Lord's Day" completely. (Note that the international dateline is manmade.) The bible was very specific as to the demarcations of the Sabbath, and leaves us in the dark when we try to apply the regulation on a global level. A command that cannot be defined cannot be enforced. That may be why Paul said, "let each be convinced in his own mind" regarding considering one day to be more holy than another.

Breaking the sabbath is a capital crime according to the pentateuch. We'd better be pretty sure when it begins and ends before we stone somebody for "breaking" it. But we can't do that.

FWIW if the world was all in one time zone--Israel's time zone, I'd probably obey the fourth commandment and consider it a moral law rather than ceremonial.

--Jon
 
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D.W.

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Spawn said:
they should be in Hebrew according to WHOM? No where does it say that the prayers have to be in Hebrew. sheesh. Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, Who has made us holy through His commandments and commanded us to kindle the Sabbath light.

the candles 1st - remember 2nd - keep and she waves her hands over both before covering her eyes.



OF COURSE - NEITHER of these things is required by the Tanach, only by Talmud the official handbook of pharisitical Judaism.

Shalom Spawn,

It says in the prayer book (siddur) that the prayers are best said in Hebrew. Of course if you are going to read a Hebrew prayer, then it only make sense that it would be recited in Hebrew. I do not believe it has any less meaning in English. "sheesh" I am only stating how the Hebrews would like their prayer read. It is a way to keep the language alive. It is up to you if you do not want to learn Hebrew.

The Tanach gives us the commandment to honor the Sabbath and the Talmud and tradition teaches us how to give the Sabbath its full Honor. Without them we would not know how to honor it right.

G-d Bless,

Dan

 
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JustinWindsor

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What you are saying below appears to be Jewish, rather than liberal Christian. The entire book of the letter to the Hebrews, along with the Book of Romans and the Letter to the Galatians stand as undisputable testimony that the Law is a curse, from which a New Covenant Christian is redeemed. There is no longer any requirement for a Jew to keep the Law if they are redeemed and there was never any instruction for a Gentile Christian to keep the Old Covenant Law.

The Law is the ministry of condemnation. And yes...that most definitely includes the Sabbatarian instructions. These were for God's covenant people Israel. Who, incidentally, did not keep the Law either. A remnant will be saved only by His grace.

May God Bless,

D.W. said:
Shalom Spawn,

It says in the prayer book (siddur) that the prayers are best said in Hebrew. Of course if you are going to read a Hebrew prayer, then it only make sense that it would be recited in Hebrew. I do not believe it has any less meaning in English. "sheesh" I am only stating how the Hebrews would like their prayer read. It is a way to keep the language alive. It is up to you if you do not want to learn Hebrew.

The Tanach gives us the commandment to honor the Sabbath and the Talmud and tradition teaches us how to give the Sabbath its full Honor. Without them we would not know how to honor it right.

G-d Bless,

Dan

 
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D.W.

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JustinWindsor said:
What you are saying below appears to be Jewish, rather than liberal Christian. The entire book of the letter to the Hebrews, along with the Book of Romans and the Letter to the Galatians stand as undisputable testimony that the Law is a curse, from which a New Covenant Christian is redeemed. There is no longer any requirement for a Jew to keep the Law if they are redeemed and there was never any instruction for a Gentile Christian to keep the Old Covenant Law.

The Law is the ministry of condemnation. And yes...that most definitely includes the Sabbatarian instructions. These were for God's covenant people Israel. Who, incidentally, did not keep the Law either. A remnant will be saved only by His grace.

May God Bless,
[Shalom Justin,

The Messiah said that the Law is not done away with.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Has heaven and earth passed and no one told us?

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The christ did away with the natural law of death not G-d’s law.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

You say the Sabbath was for Israel but G-d says this.

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

G-d Bless,

Dan

 
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silkcity

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Exaclty what i've told them d.w. It's like if you guys continue to ignore openly what's written. i don't understand.

Of everything you guys argue, where is it written?
1. I didn't say that we are are allowed to break the Law you did.
2. What does perpetual mean? Forever and ever. Why do you call God a liar?
3. The Jews were a light to the world, they were God's chosen people as we Christians are today to spread the light. Which means they were not the only ones who would be under the Law. Everyone is under the Law.
4. Why will we then keep the Sabbath in the new life?
5. First time i here the law is a burden. I thought it was the character of God. Jesus is the Law in person. If you change the law than you change Jesus. You said it, not me, and that's scary. We all know how much blood has shed throughout history because of twisting the word of God.
6. Isn't Christ the only means of Salvation? John 14.6., Acts 4.12.
7. You know what? Forget it! I don't know how clearer it could be than "I did NOT come to destroy the law." Seriously what are you gonna say now?
Luke 16.17 Take some time to read first. I doubt you've read any of the texts that i provided in the previous posts.
Christians right? We believe in Christ and follow his example right? So what would Jesus do? John 15.10 'If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.'
Martin Luther had the courage to speak out against the corruption of God's perfect law (Psalms 19.7). He took the first steps at least. It's safe to say that if he could see the present, he would be devastated to see that his followers do the same. Where's the progress? Why are we satisfied with only the half truth? Keep in mind that with God it's all or nothing. (Rev. 3.15,16)

Here's a word of advice from one sinner to another, from one Christian to another. Read the scripture. But before you do, demand wisdom from God. (James 1.5)
Ok guys, i think there's nothing more to say. Sincerely, may God bless us.


D.W. said:
[Shalom Justin,

The Messiah said that the Law is not done away with.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Has heaven and earth passed and no one told us?

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The christ did away with the natural law of death not G-d’s law.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

You say the Sabbath was for Israel but G-d says this.

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

G-d Bless,

Dan

 
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silkcity

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Easy there. No one is stoning anyone here. And anyone can make excuses. I'm not making one day more holy than the other. God already made the Sabbath. Not sure how the bible leaves us in the dark though.





jonwsj said:
I think the Sunday observance of the early church falls under tradition more than it does under Biblical mandate. Back then their "world" was confined pretty much to just a few time zones, so the sundown-to-sundown requirements could still be obeyed. But nowadays airplanes can take us across the international dateline and cause us to skip the "Lord's Day" completely. (Note that the international dateline is manmade.) The bible was very specific as to the demarcations of the Sabbath, and leaves us in the dark when we try to apply the regulation on a global level. A command that cannot be defined cannot be enforced. That may be why Paul said, "let each be convinced in his own mind" regarding considering one day to be more holy than another.

Breaking the sabbath is a capital crime according to the pentateuch. We'd better be pretty sure when it begins and ends before we stone somebody for "breaking" it. But we can't do that.

FWIW if the world was all in one time zone--Israel's time zone, I'd probably obey the fourth commandment and consider it a moral law rather than ceremonial.

--Jon
 
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JustinWindsor

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...you simply don't understand what Paul has said clearly in Romans and Galatians, or what the writer to the Hebrews said, regarding the ministry of the Law. I'm not the one ignoring or throwing out Scripture. You have to completely disregard major portions of Apostolic teaching and how they interpreted the significance of Law and the Prophets in order for what you consider the place of the Law today to hold true. I'll leave you to your beliefs then.

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 3:25
Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 8:6
But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

Hebrews 8:7
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Folks, Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Law. The Law of Moses stands today as the ministry of condemnation against all who will not believe. The New Covenant in Christ's blood is the only ministry that saves.


May God Bless you richly with the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
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D.W.

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Shalom,

The things that Paul said were missunderstood by many people because they did not know how to think as Paul thought. He thought as a Jew. Peter understood this when he said:
2 Pet 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2 Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The Elders of Jeruselem understood that his words were being twisted when they told Paul:

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Acts 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Acts 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Acts 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly,and keepest the law.

G-d Bless,
Dan

 
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Spawn

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D.W. said:
Shalom Spawn,

It says in the prayer book (siddur) that the prayers are best said in Hebrew. Of course if you are going to read a Hebrew prayer, then it only make sense that it would be recited in Hebrew. I do not believe it has any less meaning in English. "sheesh" I am only stating how the Hebrews would like their prayer read. It is a way to keep the language alive. It is up to you if you do not want to learn Hebrew.

The Tanach gives us the commandment to honor the Sabbath and the Talmud and tradition teaches us how to give the Sabbath its full Honor. Without them we would not know how to honor it right.

G-d Bless,

Dan
I know all about how the Jews do things from personal experiences.

Talmud is for the pharisees not for Christians. I’d just as soon take instructions from the book of mormon or the Koran on how to properly worship God. Talmud is good for helping us understand why the Jewish people do what they do, but bad for religious instruction for Christians.

You give the Sabbath full honour by putting it in its proper place. Further, I do not take instructions on how to worship God from Pharisees or their books.
 
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D.W.

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Spawn said:
I know all about how the Jews do things from personal experiences.

Talmud is for the pharisees not for Christians. I’d just as soon take instructions from the book of mormon or the Koran on how to properly worship God. Talmud is good for helping us understand why the Jewish people do what they do, but bad for religious instruction for Christians.

You give the Sabbath full honour by putting it in its proper place. Further, I do not take instructions on how to worship God from Pharisees or their books.

Shalom Spawn,

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


That means to observe all that they observe and do a little more besides. That "little more" is the faith we have in Messiah. So to conclude you must obey the Talmud AND Yeshua NOT replace them.

If you would rather follow false gods and Idols, thats up to you, but the Messiah said to observe what the Pharisees teach.

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

G-d Bless,
Dan


 
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Spawn

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D.W. said:
Shalom Spawn,

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


That means to observe all that they observe and do a little more besides. That "little more" is the faith we have in Messiah. So to conclude you must obey the Talmud AND Yeshua NOT replace them.


No it means that unless you have more than SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. The Pharisees believed that is what was THEIR actions, THEIR efforts that saved them. Read what else Christ said of the pharisees - pit of vipers, hypocrties ( like 14 times), they walk in the flesh, etc. If you think Christ was impressed in any way with the pharisees, I have to wonder what translation of the bible you are using...

If you would rather follow false gods and Idols, thats up to you, but the Messiah said to observe what the Pharisees teach.

where does he say this? Lets not forget that the PHARISEES sought his death for not keeping the Sabbath.

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

HE was AGAINST their works based religion.
 
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jonwsj

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silkcity said:
Easy there. No one is stoning anyone here. And anyone can make excuses. I'm not making one day more holy than the other. God already made the Sabbath. Not sure how the bible leaves us in the dark though.

I mean that the Bible leaves us in the dark as to how a "global" Sabbath should be defined. In Leviticus it says "from even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbath." So, it's sundown to sundown, Israeli standard time. If you pick up firewood to build a fire during that 24-hour period, you must be stoned according to the Pentateuch law. (That's what I meant by "stoning".)

People who try to "adjust" the Sabbath according to their own time zone run into a problem, though. Where do we put the international date line, which divides one day from another? The Bible doesn't say. So the international date line is a man-made thing. So any "global" application of the Sabbath is a man-made law, not defined by scripture. So the Bible leaves us in the dark there. Any command that cannot be defined cannot be enforced and therefore is invalid.

--Jon
 
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silkcity

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jonwsj said:
I mean that the Bible leaves us in the dark as to how a "global" Sabbath should be defined. In Leviticus it says "from even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbath." So, it's sundown to sundown, Israeli standard time. If you pick up firewood to build a fire during that 24-hour period, you must be stoned according to the Pentateuch law. (That's what I meant by "stoning".)

People who try to "adjust" the Sabbath according to their own time zone run into a problem, though. Where do we put the international date line, which divides one day from another? The Bible doesn't say. So the international date line is a man-made thing. So any "global" application of the Sabbath is a man-made law, not defined by scripture. So the Bible leaves us in the dark there. Any command that cannot be defined cannot be enforced and therefore is invalid.

--Jon

Jesus sanctified a day, and not an object, to remember him for a reason. time cannot be destroyed. Jesus didn't forget anything in the Law. On the 7th day God rested. The 24 hour day is not man made. God put the earth to spin on it's axis. so therefore, it's divine. there's no adjusting here. adjusting time is saying that the day begins at 12:00 midnight. nowhere in the bible does it say that. genesis 1 states for everyday 'and the evening and the morning were the -- day.' your argument makes sense if we start a day, or in this case the sabbath at 12:00 am, as man has made it. here its a different time than in another part of the world. however, no matter where you are on this planet, when the sun sets. at that place an old day ends and a new day begins. God is perfect and wise. He makes no mistakes.
 
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