Stuck in limbo

[hmseej]

Firstly, as you may guess from my sign-up date, I've debated whether to post something on this here for quite a while! Sorry in advance for the long rambling post.

As an intro to my current situation - a few years back I was given some literature on Christianity aimed at non-believers. While I dismissed it (and even found it funny that someone thought it would change my mind), it did end up sparking an interest into doing some more research into what precisely it was that I, as an agnostic with only a tenuous grasp on Christianity, was actually disagreeing with. While nothing I've found since has led me to a belief that God is real, I also just don't seem to be satisfied with the conclusion that he isn't and I keep feeling an urge to keep looking - like an itch I can't scratch.

I've tried experimenting with prayer - 'God, I don't really believe in you but if you are real I'd like to know' - and I've actually started to do this more frequently in the last couple of months as for whatever reason it seems to help me sleep better at night (I'm a bit of an insomniac). It's hard to discern if this is having any genuine effect but I've come to the conclusion that I can't stop looking into this is because some part of me wants it to be true, despite no outwardly obvious reason for me to feel this way. I've also felt a strange sense of longing when reading about receiving a new heart in Ezekiel.

Despite this conclusion, I've not said a sinner's prayer or decided to follow Jesus or anything - if this is actually real, I don't think I'm 'there' in terms of saving faith and I don't want to do anything half-heartedly. I don't wholeheartedly believe that Jesus is who he says he was and while I'm OK with the idea that by the bible's standards I'm a sinner, I don't feel a great sense of repentance. There's also ideas related to Christianity that are in direct conflict with my deeply-ingrained liberal world view, and I can't shake my trust in evolution.

As the itch to keep looking into this isn't going away and my understanding is that if Christianity is true then saving faith is not something I am capable of generating myself, I feel trapped in a frustrating limbo between belief and unbelief. Any thoughts or advice - no matter how blunt - welcomed!

 

[Albion]

Hi. I think we all can appreciate your feelings. I have two reactions I would like to pass along. First, the evolution thing. This and similar beliefs are the bailiwick of some of the fundamentalistic churches, but not mainstream Christianity, so please do not make that a killer issue.

Second, there really is nothing that beats a thoughtful reading of the Bible, particularly (based on what you've written here) the New Testament.

I have the feeling from what you said to us that you have studied material that is about Christianity but not carefully studied the source except perhaps for excerpts. If the Bible stands up to scrutiny, it essentially settles the issue for you. So far, it has stood up to several thousands of years of doubt and innumerable attempts to prove it wrong by critics who were sure that they had found some fatal flaw there.

 

[PloverWing]

Welcome to CF! I hope we can be of help to you in your journey.

I'll echo what Albion said about evolution: Many Christians do not find evolution to be in conflict with their faith. I'll add that a liberal world view can also be consistent with Christianity, especially if by "liberal" you mean "concerned with social justice". I'd be happy to explore that further with you, if you like.

 

[com7fy8]

While nothing I've found since has led me to a belief that God is real, I also just don't seem to be satisfied with the conclusion that he isn't and I keep feeling an urge to keep looking - like an itch I can't scratch.

I understand that creation means there is God. But I also understand that only God can prove Himself to you - - - in your heart, yes.

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

God is "love" > 1 John 4:8&16 > and so God is personal with every one of us, in one way or another >

"God resists the proud,
.But gives grace to the humble."
. . . . . . . . . (in James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5)

In His love we have heart communication with Him. But we need how He changes our heart so we can share with Him and obey Him.

if Christianity is true then saving faith is not something I am capable of generating myself,

Our Apostle Paul says we need > "faith working through love" > in Galatians 5:6. So, faith has us with God in our heart, even sharing with Him personally while also obeying how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us with His own peace in our > yes > "hearts".

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

This is how personal our Heavenly Father is with each of His children.

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So, you certainly are right to be attracted to scripture which talks about having a new heart. This is not only about worldview and belief systems, then. God is able to prove Himself to you.

 

[GospelS]

As the itch to keep looking into this isn't going away and my understanding is that if Christianity is true then saving faith is not something I am capable of generating myself, I feel trapped in a frustrating limbo between belief and unbelief. Any thoughts or advice - no matter how blunt - welcomed!

In my opinion, you have just what you need and I'm glad about that. You have a heart to seek and know God and you said you are "OK with the idea that by the bible's standards I'm a sinner".

God knows your itch and frustration. I'm confident that He will provide just what you need. He will give you a new heart just as you are longing. This is not a system where you say a sinner's prayer or do anything half-heartedly and you get saved.

God knows you well and He will deal with all your direct conflicts and your deeply-ingrained ideas and views. Yes, saving faith is not something we are capable of generating ourselves. But because you have a desire to find the truth and acknowledge the truth, God will open the eyes and ears of your spirit that got blocked and blinded due to sin. Then you will see the truth and receive the saving faith that will bring you to repentance.

Regarding your trust in evolution, is it not evident that just as we have a earthly/biological father for our existence, there is a spiritual/heavenly Father of all creation. Just like there is a father and his family, there is also God and His creation. It is God's hands that forms and makes a baby in a mother's womb. God is Spirit and it is He who breathes life into us or else we would be dead without spirit. This is a shade of the truth that we live so we can recognize there is God who created this whole world that reflects Him in all His creation.

Keep going and praying, as you walk in this path you shall be set free from this limbo.

 

[Sanoy]

I think you are on the right track by praying. Here is something to consider that may help you see who God is and how, in some sense, you are already familiar with him.

One of the reasons holding you back is a conflict in values, your liberal values, and God's values. But what are your values grounded in? In what ways are they objectively right? On naturalism, how could you trust the origin of your moral intuition? On Christianity we ground both of these things in God. His nature is the paradigm which goodness refers to, and He is the creator of our moral intuitions. So when you apprehend a raw moral virtue you are apprehending a part of God's nature through the very mechanism He put in you to do so.

 

[bling]

Hi! Thank you for joining us on CF.

You have some good concerns, but not much of a need to know.

How would knowing the Christian God truly exists, change you or do you not see a need for change?

I have spent lots of time with nonbelievers, but they felt a burden on their conscience over things they did in the past which hurt people (sin), but you seem “OK” with it, so have you been that good?

Stopping the “itch” might sound good, but you might be replacing it with a burdensome worry, so why would you want to do that?

Acknowledging God’s existence is not going to do anything for God, while allowing God of your own free will to help you can make a huge difference in your life, so do you want to change?

 

[hmseej]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses so far. Albion you are right- I do have a bible and have read parts of it, but I've found it hard to get fully 'stuck in' with it. Fully aware how groanworthy that will sound but it feels kind of like a mental block - it just hasn't clicked at this time. I've tried the usual 'start with John' approach so very open to any other suggestions (or to hearing I need to try again, if that's your view!)

My feeling is that it's unwise to get further into my belief in evolution and liberal values at this time - but the fact that there are such fundamental disagreements within Christianity (let alone all other religions and worldviews) kind of fuels the sceptical side of me.

Hi! Thank you for joining us on CF.

You have some good concerns, but not much of a need to know.

How would knowing the Christian God truly exists, change you or do you not see a need for change?

I have spent lots of time with nonbelievers, but they felt a burden on their conscience over things they did in the past which hurt people (sin), but you seem “OK” with it, so have you been that good?

Stopping the “itch” might sound good, but you might be replacing it with a burdensome worry, so why would you want to do that?

Acknowledging God’s existence is not going to do anything for God, while allowing God of your own free will to help you can make a huge difference in your life, so do you want to change?

This post has given me some food for thought. To clarify, I do of course feel burdened by certain things I've done in the past. I guess my view is that no human being is perfect and if there is no God, it's probably best to try to be better but not beat yourself up unnecessarily for fundamentally being human.

And if there is a God....I guess my question is if humans were his creation, then did he make them imperfectly? And if he did, surely his standards have set us up to fail - so is making Jesus the only path to salvation really righteous, just and merciful? This is what I am struggling with.

What I want is a good question, and probably one I need to think more on. In the short term, it is to come down on one side or the fence or the other. Whichever side that is...I would want to do it 'properly'. So I guess that does mean being open to changes if it does end up being the side of Jesus, but that train of thought might be something I still need to find a way of working through.

 

[GospelS]

And if there is a God....I guess my question is if humans were his creation, then did he make them imperfectly? And if he did, surely his standards have set us up to fail - so is making Jesus the only path to salvation really righteous, just and merciful? This is what I am struggling with.

I'm sorry that there are some fundamental disagreements but we all know and believe that the God of the bible is true. God created us perfectly and with an ability to choose between life and death, good and evil. He instructed them to choose life and goodness. But our first Adam&Eve fell for Satan's deception. God did allow Satan to do whatever it did but God wanted Adam&Eve to obey and love God freely thus willingly choose life and goodness.

 

[hmseej]

I'm sorry that there are some fundamental disagreements but we all know and believe that the God of the bible is true. God created us perfectly and with a choice to choose between life and death, good and evil. He instructed them to choose life and goodness. But our first Adam&Eve fell for Satan's deception. God did allow Satan to do whatever it did but God wanted Adam&Eve to obey and love God freely thus willingly choose life and goodness.

The original sin adds to my confusion on this though...if Adam and Eve's choice condemned humanity to imperfection, then do we have free will if we can't make a conscious choice to be good and sinless? And if we are incapable of making that choice, then surely our design is still imperfect no matter how the sinful state came about? It just doesn't quite make sense to me, or gel with the idea of a merciful God.

 

[GospelS]

The original sin adds to my confusion on this though...if Adam and Eve's choice condemned humanity to imperfection, then do we have free will if we can't make a conscious choice to be good and sinless? And if we are incapable of making that choice, then surely our design is still imperfect no matter how the sinful state came about? It just doesn't quite make sense to me, or gel with the idea of a merciful God.

Yes, we are born imperfect because of Adam's sin. It is unfortunate that we are condemned. But you made a good choice to seek truth about God while some don't even make a genuine effort to find out about Him or reject Him without much thought and research. This is ALL that is needed to do on our part, to diligently search and know true God. From there, God will take care of leading you in the good path and you will no longer be condemned. I'm confident of this because my God is faithful.

 

[bling]

And if there is a God....I guess my question is if humans were his creation, then did he make them imperfectly? And if he did, surely his standards have set us up to fail - so is making Jesus the only path to salvation really righteous, just and merciful? This is what I am struggling with.

What I want is a good question, and probably one I need to think more on. In the short term, it is to come down on one side or the fence or the other. Whichever side that is...I would want to do it 'properly'. So I guess that does mean being open to changes if it does end up being the side of Jesus, but that train of thought might be something I still need to find a way of working through.

Those are a very good thought-out questions!!

They go to the heart of the matter: “Man’s earthly objective”.

As far as humans being made “perfect”, they just cannot be made clones of Jesus, but God says they started out “very good”, but not “perfect”. There are, just something God cannot do, like you might have heard: “Can God make a rock so large He cannot move it?” Most important to humans is the fact: God cannot make a being which has always existed (this would be like Christ who like God has always existed).

Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as His sake.

God would be doing or allowing everything to help humans who are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their earthly objective.

God allows evil to happen to help humans, but God also allowed Christ to go to the cross to help humans.

There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow of your own free will God to help you, which is God’s desire since God is a huge giver of gifts.

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: “Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy.” In order to fulfill that mission, man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objectives.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

You do not have to believe the Adam and Eve story is true to get lots of good messages from it. Most people go through a time in which they ask: “How could a Loving God allow such a thing”, which means “why does God not start us all out in a Garden type situation without, needy people, limited resources, death, and questions about His existence?”

What we can do is thank Adam and Eve for showing us and them that what we might consider the ideal situation is a lousy situation for man to fulfill his earthly objective. Adam and Eve as our very best all human representatives did not fulfill the objective while sinless in the Garden and really could not. The situation after sinning outside the Garden did provide a way to fulfill the objective.

I and it seems other have to have opportunities at our doorstep to respond with Love, if I would just cease the opportunities at some distance there might be few opportunities (tragedies) needed for me, so if you want to blame someone for all these tragedies blame me for not ceasing more earlier.

That is just an introduction.

 

[bling]

Yes, we are born imperfect because of Adam's sin. It is unfortunate that we are condemned. But you made a good choice to seek truth about God while some don't even make a genuine effort to find out about Him or reject Him without much thought and research. This is ALL that is needed to do on our part, to diligently search and know true God. Then from there, God will take care of leading you in the good path and you will no longer be condemned. I'm confident of this because my God is faithful.

You might read my post 16 and comment?

 

[GospelS]

You might read my post 16 and comment?

Ok, dear. I read and liked it. Do you have a question for me?

God bless.

 

[bling]

Ok, dear. I read and liked it. Do you have a question for me?

God bless.

We are born “imperfect” because God cannot make us clones of Christ (perfect). If you need to blame someone for this messed up world, blame me and not Adam and Eve. I needed a world like we have to: see Love, experience Love, receive Love and give Godly type Love. If I did better (allowed the Spirit to work through me more) this world would not need to be so messed up. Earth is not my home, but the place for me to obtain and grow Godly type Love. It is a privilege and honor to serve such a wonderful God.

 

[GospelS]

We are born “imperfect” because God cannot make us clones of Christ (perfect). If you need to blame someone for this messed up world, blame me and not Adam and Eve. I needed a world like we have to: see Love, experience Love, receive Love and give Godly type Love. If I did better (allowed the Spirit to work through me more) this world would not need to be so messed up. Earth is not my home, but the place for me to obtain and grow Godly type Love. It is a privilege and honor to serve such a wonderful God.

Yes, dear. Ok. I agree with you. It is even more beautiful when light shines in the darkness. God made it that way. Now we see and know what love is even better.

I was just referring to the actual history that happened in the beginning, in Genesis.

Much love to you in Christ.

 

[GospelS]

The original sin adds to my confusion on this though...if Adam and Eve's choice condemned humanity to imperfection, then do we have free will if we can't make a conscious choice to be good and sinless? And if we are incapable of making that choice, then surely our design is still imperfect no matter how the sinful state came about? It just doesn't quite make sense to me, or gel with the idea of a merciful God.

We would all have done the same thing that Adam & Eve did if we were in their shoes, perfect and human, yet we would all fall just like they did. They were representing what all humans would do anyway.

 

[bling]

Yes, dear. Ok. I agree with you. It is even more beautiful when light shines in the darkness. God made it that way. Now we see and know what love is even better.

I was just referring about the actual history of what happened in the beginning, in Genesis.

Much love to you in Christ.

Much Love for you, are you living in India right now?

 

[hmseej]

Those are a very good thought-out questions!!

They go to the heart of the matter: “Man’s earthly objective”.

As far as humans being made “perfect”, they just cannot be made clones of Jesus, but God says they started out “very good”, but not “perfect”. There are, just something God cannot do, like you might have heard: “Can God make a rock so large He cannot move it?” Most important to humans is the fact: God cannot make a being which has always existed (this would be like Christ who like God has always existed).

Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as His sake.

God would be doing or allowing everything to help humans who are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their earthly objective.

God allows evil to happen to help humans, but God also allowed Christ to go to the cross to help humans.

There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow of your own free will God to help you, which is God’s desire since God is a huge giver of gifts.

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: “Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy.” In order to fulfill that mission, man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objectives.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary but not desired.

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and know Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

You do not have to believe the Adam and Eve story is true to get lots of good messages from it. Most people go through a time in which they ask: “How could a Loving God allow such a thing”, which means “why does God not start us all out in a Garden type situation without, needy people, limited resources, death, and questions about His existence?”

What we can do is thank Adam and Eve for showing us and them that what we might consider the ideal situation is a lousy situation for man to fulfill his earthly objective. Adam and Eve as our very best all human representatives did not fulfill the objective while sinless in the Garden and really could not. The situation after sinning outside the Garden did provide a way to fulfill the objective.

I and it seems other have to have opportunities at our doorstep to respond with Love, if I would just cease the opportunities at some distance there might be few opportunities (tragedies) needed for me, so if you want to blame someone for all these tragedies blame me for not ceasing more earlier.

That is just an introduction.

Thanks for your thoughts, which again have given me something to chew over.

I guess what I have been trying to do is look at possibilities for why I feel the way I do from both the Christian and Agnostic/Atheist sides to see if there is any way forward - and for the Christian side, that's basically been trying to figure out if this all seems like an actual 'thing' (i.e. a recognisable experience).

I'm not sure I have an answer to that still - but I suppose it might be something that no one else can answer! So I might try to find some time to look into the bible again and see if anything more resonates.

 

[GospelS]

Thanks for your thoughts, which again have given me something to chew over.

I guess what I have been trying to do is look at possibilities for why I feel the way I do from both the Christian and Agnostic/Atheist sides to see if there is any way forward - and for the Christian side, that's basically been trying to figure out if this all seems like an actual 'thing' (i.e. a recognisable experience).

I'm not sure I have an answer to that still - but I suppose it might be something that no one else can answer! So I might try to find some time to look into the bible again and see if anything more resonates.

If i can suggest, study the books of Hosea, Jonah, Job, and Ecclesiastes.