STILL no evidence FOR creation/ID

[Alpha.Omega]

Yes, of course; it's just imaginative fiction, like all the others. Gods, serpents, sea monsters, turtles, chaos, etc. See creation myths for a selection.

Maybe you can tell us how this universe began?

 

[Silmarien]

Maybe you can tell us how this universe began?

Why should he even bother? You'll just say that whatever he comes up with is from the devil.

 

[Alpha.Omega]

Why should he even bother? You'll just say that whatever he comes up with is from the devil.

You care to tell us

 

[majj27]

Quantum vacuums are not nothing. My favorite metaphor for explaining this is to point out that if your bank account was at zero dollars and suddenly had five thousand dollars deposited into it, its starting point was not "nothing" in the theological sense, since the entire economic structure and banking system was already in place.

If quantum vacuums are to be used as an explanation (which I am dubious about because I am unconvinced that they would even exist in the absence of a pre-existing universe), then we're back at eternal universe/multiverse as the alternative.

Also there's every reason to believe that time is a property of the universe, so it is somewhat strange to talk about near-infinities prior to the Big Bang.

I think we're probably going off the thread topic, but strictly speaking, whatever existed before the Big Bang can be sort of summed up as "???" It very well could have been a near-zero energy state of a collapsed prior universe googols of years old. Or it could have been very spicy cheez whiz. We've really got no way of knowing.

The Big Bang marks the initial point of *this* universe. Whatever happened prior is pure conjecture for us.

It's all pretty neat, really.

EDIT: Since I only dabble in this stuff, I may very easily be out of date on the subject or just plain wrong.

 

[majj27]

In case you hadn't noticed the thread is about Creation

The textbook is technically part of said universe that was created.

 

[majj27]

For your information. All the 66 Books of the Holy Bible is directly Inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore Infallible and Inerrant in ALL that it says

What about the other 7?

(or 12)?

 

[Halbhh]

One of my favorites is Neoplatonism, whereby the inner activity of God, who is utterly simple and beyond existence itself, eternally results in the emanation of Intellect (a sort of pre-embodied cognition), which then gazing back upon its source and trying to understand itself leads to a second emanation, the Soul, whose outer activity is the manifestation of physical reality. Everything is a matter of procession and return--emanating from God and then turning back to gaze upon him. But there is no genuine action of creation here in the Christian sense.

I think forms of Hinduism would have a similar approach, though I am less familiar with this aspect of Hindu theology than with others. But I get the impression that it is simply within Brahman's nature to eternally manifest physical realities. It is not very clear that this is being done intentionally.

Both of these theistic frameworks are radically nondualistic--there is no strong distinction between God and the world as there is in Christianity.

An old familiar idea and well said.

Here's another... transformation of that! --

Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

 

[Speedwell]

Only the Holy Bible and the God of the Bible is fully True and Trustworthy. All else is from the devil

Are you a 1611er?

 

[Alpha.Omega]

Regardless of the theories that exist about how this universe began. They all tell us that there was something that "developed" from something or something "banged". Which leads to the all importnt question as to what exactly "developed" or "banged"? Where did this first element or atom or particle or whatever COME FROM? This is the question that has nor can be answered apart from Almighty God.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

One of my favorites is Neoplatonism, whereby the inner activity of God, who is utterly simple and beyond existence itself, eternally results in the emanation of Intellect (a sort of pre-embodied cognition), which then gazing back upon its source and trying to understand itself leads to a second emanation, the Soul, whose outer activity is the manifestation of physical reality. Everything is a matter of procession and return--emanating from God and then turning back to gaze upon him. But there is no genuine action of creation here in the Christian sense.

I think forms of Hinduism would have a similar approach, though I am less familiar with this aspect of Hindu theology than with others. But I get the impression that it is simply within Brahman's nature to eternally manifest physical realities. It is not very clear that this is being done intentionally.

Both of these theistic frameworks are radically nondualistic--there is no strong distinction between God and the world as there is in Christianity.

That sounds quite Hegelian...

 

[Speedwell]

Regardless of the theories that exist about how this universe began. They all tell us that there was something that "developed" from something or something "banged". Which leads to the all importnt question as to what exactly "developed" or "banged"? Where did this first element or atom or particle or whatever COME FROM? This is the question that has nor can be answered apart from Almighty God.

Of course. And for all Christians (whether you think they're real Christians or not) God is ultimately the author of the universe.

 

[Alpha.Omega]

Are you a 1611er?

No. Hebrew Greek Latin and NKJV ESV NASB

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Regardless of the theories that exist about how this universe began. They all tell us that there was something that "developed" from something or something "banged". Which leads to the all importnt question as to what exactly "developed" or "banged"? Where did this first element or atom or particle or whatever COME FROM? This is the question that has nor can be answered apart from Almighty God.

The simplest explanation is that the quantum universe or multiverse has always been around in some form.

There are other explanations involving the 'beginning' of time, or the universe being closed in time (as in the Hartle-Hawking proposal and similar ideas), but they're not so conceptually simple.

 

[Alpha.Omega]

The simplest explanation is that the quantum universe or multiverse has always been around in some form.

There are other explanations involving the 'beginning' of time, or the universe being closed in time (as in the Hartle-Hawking proposal and similar ideas), but they're not so conceptually simple.

starting from where? Where did it BEGIN? apart from Almighty God, there is NO answer. Hawking was a rank FOOL!

 

[Silmarien]

You care to tell us

I already did. It wasn't from the Bible, therefore it was from the devil.

I think we're probably going off the thread topic, but strictly speaking, whatever existed before the Big Bang can be sort of summed up as "???" It very well could have been a near-zero energy state of a collapsed prior universe googols of years old. Or it could have been very spicy cheez whiz. We've really got no way of knowing.

Yes, but there are ultimately only two choices. Either something exists eternally, whether you want to be a materialist, a pantheist, a theist, or whatever else about it, or at some point physical reality sprang out of nothing for no reason whatsoever. Quantum vacuums, prior universes, and so forth and so on puts you firmly in the first category. It is not uncommon these days to view the second option as a possibility as well, which strikes me as the heights of insanity, but to each their own.

An old familiar idea and well said.

Here's another... transformation of that! --

Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Yeah. I don't rule this out as a possibility, but it's not the only one even from a more theistic perspective.

That sounds quite Hegelian...

Yeah, I operate vaguely within the same tradition. Though there's a bit of Heidegger in there too. And some Aquinas. And half a dozen other things, Western and Eastern alike.

 

[Alpha.Omega]

I already did. It wasn't from the Bible, therefore it was from the devil.



Yes, but there are ultimately only two choices. Either something exists eternally, whether you want to be a materialist, a pantheist, a theist, or whatever else about it, or at some point physical reality sprang out of nothing for no reason whatsoever. Quantum vacuums, prior universes, and so forth and so on puts you firmly in the first category. It is not uncommon these days to view the second option as a possibility as well, which strikes me as the heights of insanity, but to each their own.



Yeah. I don't rule this out as a possibility, but it's not the only one even from a more theistic perspective.



Yeah, I operate vaguely within the same tradition. Though there's a bit of Heidegger in there too. And some Aquinas. And half a dozen other things, Western and Eastern alike.

"I already did. It wasn't from the Bible, therefore it was from the devil."

Any writing that contradicts what the Holy Bible Teaches, is 100% from the devil, because there is only ONE Word of Almighty God to the human race, and that is the Holy Bible. No other writing of other "beliefs" are required, as none can or do help the sinner find forgiveness for their sins, and how to get to heaven, which is only possible through the Lord Jesus Christ.

I see that you call yourself a "Christian Seeker"? What are you seeking from Christianity? Because I also see you quote from a Hindu book, which is 100% against the teachings of the Holy Bible. God ALONE is the True Light, all others represent the darkness of the devil. It is that simple!

 

[Snappy1]

We're definitely getting poed on this one.

 

[Speedwell]

"I already did. It wasn't from the Bible, therefore it was from the devil."

Any writing that contradicts what the Holy Bible Teaches, is 100% from the devil, because there is only ONE Word of Almighty God to the human race, and that is the Holy Bible. No other writing of other "beliefs" are required, as none can or do help the sinner find forgiveness for their sins, and how to get to heaven, which is only possible through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, that's something good to hear. I had begun to form the impression that you believed we were saved through faith in the literal inerrancy of Genesis, not through faith in Christ.

 

[majj27]

Yes, but there are ultimately only two choices. Either something exists eternally, whether you want to be a materialist, a pantheist, a theist, or whatever else about it, or at some point physical reality sprang out of nothing for no reason whatsoever. Quantum vacuums, prior universes, and so forth and so on puts you firmly in the first category. It is not uncommon these days to view the second option as a possibility as well, which strikes me as the heights of insanity, but to each their own.

That's a good point.

 

[Alpha.Omega]

Well, that's something good to hear. I had begun to form the impression that you believed we were saved through faith in the literal inerrancy of Genesis, not through faith in Christ.

Are you now suggesting that the Genesis Account of Creation, is not "Inerrant"? So, it has errors?