Spiritually DRAGGING

[gurneyhalleck1]

If there is hope for the spread of Holy Orthodoxy, it will be through young men like Joseph Hazen, our fellow poster in here, who is on fire for Christ and His Church, and stubborn enough to go out on a limb to spread it. Joseph started an Orthodox fellowship at Fresno State right off the bat, and really tried hard to bring folks to our parish. I happen to be one of them. Though it has been a rocky ride, Joseph was always a positive part of it. He is anxious to spread the Word of God, and he's no shrinking violet. He has the guts and energy and desire. If we get enough converts from without and don't focus on the do-nothing sedentary folks from within, we just might get somewhere!

I am VERY sorry to hear your plight this week! Sounds like that "when it rains, it pours!" stuff we always hear about! Being a human in 2014 isn't easy, and being a parent and bread-winner is a killer! LOL....Your problems may be first world, but they're problems and a pain in the butt nevertheless, sister! Hang in there! Prayers for you, TOO!

That's absolutely beautiful, Gurney. See, there you go again, encouraging me! This is why I LOVE the Church - it is only through Orthodoxy that I have learned these things, and it has revolutionized my whole walk.

(And you don't know how badly I need it today - My car is wanting to break down, not sure I can fix it, my daughter's car has been stranded at her school 40 minutes away for almost 2 weeks, my husband is working out of state, and I --- I am supposed to be baptized soon, and I NEED the Church --- but this morning I am feeling at the end of my rope, if I can't get there - so THANK YOU - I guess my problems are "first world" but it's still discouraging.)

See, you don't know how wonderful it is that you see and can articulate these things. And you are SO right!

My priest is very upset about that very thing. And I guess it's not THAT bad here, since within 2 hours' drive there are, I think, 5 Greek parishes and missions, and 1 Antiochian. The reason for changing my Baptism date was that Father is going to be out of town to consecrate a new Church in a week and a half.

If the economy wasn't so terrible here, I'd tell you that you should move here. The school system is not as bad as you experience either, as far as I can tell.

I don't know if it's just our priest, or the area, or what, but Fr. M. is very concerned with evangelism. (Having been Baptist may influence that?) Tonight we are having the last of a series of 4-week classes for the community to learn about our Church, as a follow-up from the Greek Festival. We had over a dozen people come at first, and some of them are now bringing friends. Last week over 50 people came (though some were parishioners). In a city of 50K, that's probably not too shabby.

(And our parish is NOT rich. We do have an endowment, but it is not liquid, and we operate under a deficit that Father is trying to close. We really have no spendable money to do anything, I think.)

But you are right - Orthodoxy needs to do outreach. As for America, most people here are Americans, so it ought not be an ethnic thing, and it's a barrier that people see it as such.

And those that are held in the status quo that aren't interested in going out - well, I've also heard that as being a great weakness of the Orthodox Church, and see it as so.

Your list is wonderful. If we could just get THAT in people's hands, or help them understand. I may talk to Fr. M. about it, since he has been looking for suggestions.

You remain in my prayers, dear brother. I'm so very sorry that you are having such difficulties, but in reading your post here - you are so right that THIS is what Orthodoxy has to offer. I hope you can reach some spiritual level of comfort without having to give up Orthodoxy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

just outta curiosity gurney, but as a way to kindle something (slowly of course), but why don't you turn some of your teacher intellectual side to Orthodoxy in the West? why not look into the saints of Western Europe, the Western Liturgies (to include St Tikhon and the Presanctified Gifts), etc? brush up on those lives, writings, and customs?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hit me with some good book links, bro!

just outta curiosity gurney, but as a way to kindle something (slowly of course), but why don't you turn some of your teacher intellectual side to Orthodoxy in the West? why not look into the saints of Western Europe, the Western Liturgies (to include St Tikhon and the Presanctified Gifts), etc? brush up on those lives, writings, and customs?

 

[Dorothea]

Thanks, Dot. You know, I was afraid to say anything in here for fear of a royal smack-down, but it didn't happen, and actually I'm STEADILY, SLOWLY feeling better. I think the support has helped, and ESPECIALLY the prayers! I truly believe in prayer, and the prayers people have offered up for me are FELT. Matt is right that we're all a mystical family, and our prayers and concerns for one another DO mean something.

I think you and I'll survive this, just have to accept the reality that we can't feel perky-lerky about things all the time. It's nice to know that if we vent a little or say we're fried on something, we won't get beheaded! I think that speaks well of TAW these days.

Yes, I agree.

 

[E.C.]

EC you said



It can also be the downfall of the Eastern Catholic Churches too - and not only in the USA .

Here I do go to the Russian Orthodox Church occasionally - very little English is used there and I don't believe they are all Russian born - some have been in the UK for a loooong time. My own parish - it's very strong on resistance to using English - " we are Ukrainians and we use our language " OK - I don't really have a problem with that - but would they please teach their children the language ? As a gentleman of 40+ said to me on Sunday - "I'm really surprised at the poor grasp of English many of our people have and some have been in this country for over 40 years !!" Many of our people can't actually communicate with me ! Our previous Priest had been in the country for some 20 years - and his English was abysmal - I could not go to him for confession !

Oi.

See, with the Eastern Catholic Churches their situation, I feel, is a bit more dire because the Latins treat them as second-class humans, they are not getting the converts that the Orthodox are and they are becoming more and more marginalized.

In Seattle, there are four churches. Two Greek, one OCA and one ROCOR. The two Greek churches are rich, and mostly have the liturgies in Greek and are mostly 70%+ Greek. The ROCOR parish might as well be IN Russia and the OCA parish is becoming more Slavic not only in liturgical language, but in community because they're using less English for some strong reason (and shrinking). If at least two of those parishes would use English than let the other two worship in Pig Latin for all I care, because at least then there is a place for the Pig Latin people and a place for everyone else and they won't have to talk to each other since they won't want to anyway!

Hopefully not the downfall.

Though I do wonder what things will look like, and if they will become more homogenized, or if parishes will segregate into ethnic and non-ethnic ones.

...

But what will happen overall? I wonder. Many priests seem to say this is the worst problem of Orthodoxy in America.

I think only God knows.

One thing that I've noticed about parishes of mostly Arab communities, is that the Arabs at least acknowledge the natural Americanization within their community. I've been to two Arab parishes (one in San Jose, CA. and the other right outside Baltimore, MD) and they both began in the early 1990s with communities that were 100% fresh of the boat Arabs and with liturgies in all English. As time went on and the people had kids born here who did not speak Arabic (or spoke very little but can not read or write it) they began using more and more English. My personal thought is that once the older generation dies off and the kids have their own kids than these two parishes will probably be worshiping in almost exclusively English with the exceptions of a few Lord have mercies, Paschal hymns, etc.

I feel your pain. While our liturgy is 95% in English with some Slavonic thrown in here and there, I get a little tired of us praying for Kosovo y metohija each week. Uh, hello, there are other countries out there than SERBIA!!!! We had this ongoing $$$$ aid request going on to help when there was flooding in Serbia. What about flooding in the Philippines? Flooding in Thailand? What about $$$$ to help our poor Orthodox brethren in the Middle East being slaughtered like cattle...or Copts in Egypt? What about $$$ to go to Africa to fight ebola? Why just Serbia? There is a Serbian flag in our church, too.

The funny thing is, Father will even bring it up, that there are only A TINY HANDFULL of Serbs left in our parish! Father says most became atheists or Protestant or fell away completely to apathy! The Russians and Anglo converts are the vast majority. It's hilarious! And yet Serbia this, Serbia that! LOL

Ah yes, funding...

The parish I go to now is a Greek parish with plans to raise funds for a new social hall to be built in place of the existing one (personally, I see no need for this - the existing hall is just fine). Twenty minutes away is a small OCA mission that is using the former spare chapel of a Church of God in Christ group and the two have to share the extremely limited parking space and bathrooms inside. The OCA parish has been looking for permanent space for over a decade.

Why in the hell does the Greek parish believe it more important to vote about raising $35,000 for a man to be in the area for three months telling them how to raise the $6 MILLION need to 1) demolish existing hall and 2) build new hall which will be larger than existing church - when there is a fellow Orthodox community that is having to worship in a building belonging to people who are very iconoclastic and have extremely limited parking on a semi-busy street? Why can't they instead send the $35,000 to the mission so they increase their chances of securing property? I had hoped that someone there (they all know the mission exists) would bring it up, but it was quite clear that Egypt would become a Coptic monarchy before any would think of such a thing.

(For the record, yes, this clearly disturbs me a great deal and I will probably talk to Fr T. about it, but I already know what his answer will be: the bishop would never approve such a financial move to help non-Greeks since he is hellbent on removing all the English from this parish! Or just have Fr T. replaced with a priest more nationalistic than the Golden Dawn)

 

[Dorothea]

I feel your pain. While our liturgy is 95% in English with some Slavonic thrown in here and there, I get a little tired of us praying for Kosovo y metohija each week. Uh, hello, there are other countries out there than SERBIA!!!! We had this ongoing $$$$ aid request going on to help when there was flooding in Serbia. What about flooding in the Philippines? Flooding in Thailand? What about $$$$ to help our poor Orthodox brethren in the Middle East being slaughtered like cattle...or Copts in Egypt? What about $$$ to go to Africa to fight ebola? Why just Serbia? There is a Serbian flag in our church, too.

The funny thing is, Father will even bring it up, that there are only A TINY HANDFULL of Serbs left in our parish! Father says most became atheists or Protestant or fell away completely to apathy! The Russians and Anglo converts are the vast majority. It's hilarious! And yet Serbia this, Serbia that! LOL

Your parish is doing better than the Greek one here in terms of the English language. In fact, if the main priest isn't there and it's just the Greek monk priest, it's all in Greek...the whole service. Luckily we know the service well enough to know what's going on, but still, it is kinda difficult.

I can understand donating to the country the roots of the church is from, but I also agree with you that it should be for local community involvement things as well as other parts of the world for our Orthodox brethren, and imo, not just for that. I personally feel that there is less of an integration of the Orthodox churches here within their local communities, which to me makes us feel like some type of cult. We should not be afraid to work side by side with other Christians in helping those less fortunate in the community and being a true part of the town the churches are in. I've felt that there's been this distancing ourselves from others, including other Christians as if we're special or something different, when we are all humans and other Christians believe in Christ and such, and I really think we need to not have such a segregated way of showing ourselves to the community we are in. Just my feelings on it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hit me with some good book links, bro!

Church Fathers like Sts Irenaeus of Lyons, Gregory the Great, Augustine of Hippo, Clement of Rome, Patrick of Ireland, etc. I know there is an AFR Podcast about American Orthodox history. the monks of St Herman's in Platina are all about Western Fathers and saints, so I am sure if you message them they could hook you up.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Oi.

See, with the Eastern Catholic Churches their situation, I feel, is a bit more dire because the Latins treat them as second-class humans, they are not getting the converts that the Orthodox are and they are becoming more and more marginalized.

I can't say I dispute that, I have no idea what I would do if they shut my parish down, there is a huge shortage of priests right now....and our pastor is in his 80s.

I ask myself where I would go. The next closest Eastern Catholic Church is an hour away on a good day, and from my understanding very ethnic.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can't say I dispute that, I have no idea what I would do if they shut my parish down, there is a huge shortage of priests right now....and our pastor is in his 80s.

I ask myself where I would go. The next closest Eastern Catholic Church is an hour away on a good day, and from my understanding very ethnic.

well, I say you go where the Truth is. if the Truth is in the Roman communion, then you should go to the closest RC Church, even if it is Latin Rite, and they treat you like someone second class because that is where the fullness of the Truth is.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There are times I miss the Catholic Church a lot, then I just look at Pope Francis and shudder! "Who am I to judge?" (face-palming)

Last Lent I probably broke Orthodox "protocols" and went to our local Catholic parish for Stations of the Cross TWICE. The kids loved it, and I felt home again in the devotion. It is lovely and meaningful to me.

Yeah, I've thought off and on of returning to the CC and suffering through the Novus Ordo Mass three times a month, then going to Latin Mass up in Fresno once a month.

But, my heart is more of the Orthodox faith theologically, spiritually, and liturgically, and frankly Pope Francis scares the TAR out of me!

I can't say I dispute that, I have no idea what I would do if they shut my parish down, there is a huge shortage of priests right now....and our pastor is in his 80s.

I ask myself where I would go. The next closest Eastern Catholic Church is an hour away on a good day, and from my understanding very ethnic.

 

[GoingByzantine]

There are times I miss the Catholic Church a lot, then I just look at Pope Francis and shudder! "Who am I to judge?" (face-palming)

Last Lent I probably broke Orthodox "protocols" and went to our local Catholic parish for Stations of the Cross TWICE. The kids loved it, and I felt home again in the devotion. It is lovely and meaningful to me.

Yeah, I've thought off and on of returning to the CC and suffering through the Novus Ordo Mass three times a month, then going to Latin Mass up in Fresno once a month.

But, my heart is more of the Orthodox faith theologically, spiritually, and liturgically, and frankly Pope Francis scares the TAR out of me!

Gurney, it sounds to me that you are in the right place.

I have to be very careful about what I say, but it sounds like Orthodoxy is right for you. It might simply be a matter of finding a more Western variant.

 

[Anhelyna]

In some respects, I'm in a worse situation than most of you . I'm very very definitely Eastern , albeit catholic.

My Parish is the only EC Parish in Scotland and it's literally dying - normal attendance on a really good day can be 14 - and 3 of them are 90 !! . we have 4 children [ one is the priest's daughter aged 2 ] the other three are under 12 and seen at irregular intervals [ well sport seems to take precedence ]. We have 3 outside communities - one has 4 members , one has 2 and the other seems to be the same - they are Served monthly. we are about to start up another - so far numbers totally unknown . We can't survive like this.

If we close where do I go ? The nearest parish is hundreds of miles away - the fastest journey is approx. 3 hours including a 1 hour flight to my Confessor's parish - where it has to be admitted I'm welcomed by the folk there - hugs and kisses a-plenty.

I suspect I'll go RO most Sundays [ they know I'm catholic ] and head to my Confessor for confession and Communion as often as I can.

 

[Michie]

Hey Gurney, I'm late! I'm so sorry you are feeling this way. I've felt the same off & on since becoming Catholic. So I feel for you. Prayers things continue to improve for you.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks, Michie, my good buddy. YOUR prayers mean a lot to me! Thank you, sister!

Hey Gurney, I'm late! I'm so sorry you are feeling this way. I've felt the same off & on since becoming Catholic. So I feel for you. Prayers things continue to improve for you.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The funny thing is, my parish IS SUPER BLESSED with children. Honestly, we have children coming out our ears! They're everywhere! I've never seen so many! It's crazy....but, even the kids are cliqued up and don't give off a friendly vibe. After communion, our kids go to the doors waiting to go with their teachers to church school. Every time Veronica is done communing, takes her antidoron, and stands in the corner away from the other kids. They don't try to be her friend, and she's very uncomfortable trying to be theirs. Luke and Caleb then finish communing, they go over, and she lights up now that my two boys are there! My boys can't make friends there either. It's not just dad who has trouble fitting in at this quirky cliqued up parish, my kids struggle, too! My wife is about the only person who is well-liked by all and makes friends quickly.

In some respects, I'm in a worse situation than most of you . I'm very very definitely Eastern , albeit catholic.

My Parish is the only EC Parish in Scotland and it's literally dying - normal attendance on a really good day can be 14 - and 3 of them are 90 !! . we have 4 children [ one is the priest's daughter aged 2 ] the other three are under 12 and seen at irregular intervals [ well sport seems to take precedence ]. We have 3 outside communities - one has 4 members , one has 2 and the other seems to be the same - they are Served monthly. we are about to start up another - so far numbers totally unknown . We can't survive like this.

If we close where do I go ? The nearest parish is hundreds of miles away - the fastest journey is approx. 3 hours including a 1 hour flight to my Confessor's parish - where it has to be admitted I'm welcomed by the folk there - hugs and kisses a-plenty.

I suspect I'll go RO most Sundays [ they know I'm catholic ] and head to my Confessor for confession and Communion as often as I can.

 

[E.C.]

The funny thing is, my parish IS SUPER BLESSED with children. Honestly, we have children coming out our ears! They're everywhere! I've never seen so many! It's crazy....but, even the kids are cliqued up and don't give off a friendly vibe. After communion, our kids go to the doors waiting to go with their teachers to church school. Every time Veronica is done communing, takes her antidoron, and stands in the corner away from the other kids. They don't try to be her friend, and she's very uncomfortable trying to be theirs. Luke and Caleb then finish communing, they go over, and she lights up now that my two boys are there! My boys can't make friends there either. It's not just dad who has trouble fitting in at this quirky cliqued up parish, my kids struggle, too! My wife is about the only person who is well-liked by all and makes friends quickly.

When I was a kid and, at the time, dragged to the Orthodox liturgy with my then-future-stepmom the kids wouldn't even give me the time of day.

I was chrismated at sixteen and it wasn't until then that they'd actually say more than two words to me. By the time I had graduated high school I was one of the oldest under-21 year-olds in the parish and effectively running the acolyte side of the altar and it stayed that way until I left for the Navy four years later. By that point I had realized that most of the kids were raised by smug middle-class parents who, while they home-schooled and taught the kids to be good Christians, they still failed at teaching them compassion, empathy or just basic conversational skills with those of a lower economic situation.

Of all the kids in the few youth group outings I went on, I remain Orthodox, an ex-Anglican family of six kids remains Orthodox with one considering the Greek Archdiocese (only works out because he's more Greek than the Greeks themselves - left OCA for them too), another kid and her mom left Orthodoxy for Evangelical Protestantism because of the one smug family gossiping about them, one other family of four remains Orthodox, and two families-worth of kids of priests are effectively either nominally Orthodox or not at all.


I hate to sound cynical, but the best church friends I've had of my own generation were from other parishes either in the area or in far away places from where I reside.

While a lot of dirty laundry has been aired out in this thread (a very therapeutic exercise I might add), I think that if we revisit the original problem of Gurney's situation then again and again, let us beat the dead horse unto the Lord....

Gurney, as limited in number as they may be in your area find another parish to go to at least once a month until Joseph Hazen can be your next-door priest

 

[gzt]

Jesus4Madrid: here's a tip for when people express discomfort or even suffering. Read the book of Job, see what Job's comforters say, and try to understand why what they're saying isn't helpful. Then, before saying anything, consider, "Am I being one of Job's comforters?"

More directly, "Here's why you're wrong for being unhappy," is rarely a helpful response. It's often best to keep the trap shut.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

E.C.,

Thanks for understanding and for this post. Yeah, it's tough, man.

I had more in this post, but I'm deleting it to cover my butt.

When I was a kid and, at the time, dragged to the Orthodox liturgy with my then-future-stepmom the kids wouldn't even give me the time of day.

I was chrismated at sixteen and it wasn't until then that they'd actually say more than two words to me. By the time I had graduated high school I was one of the oldest under-21 year-olds in the parish and effectively running the acolyte side of the altar and it stayed that way until I left for the Navy four years later. By that point I had realized that most of the kids were raised by smug middle-class parents who, while they home-schooled and taught the kids to be good Christians, they still failed at teaching them compassion, empathy or just basic conversational skills with those of a lower economic situation.

Of all the kids in the few youth group outings I went on, I remain Orthodox, an ex-Anglican family of six kids remains Orthodox with one considering the Greek Archdiocese (only works out because he's more Greek than the Greeks themselves - left OCA for them too), another kid and her mom left Orthodoxy for Evangelical Protestantism because of the one smug family gossiping about them, one other family of four remains Orthodox, and two families-worth of kids of priests are effectively either nominally Orthodox or not at all.


I hate to sound cynical, but the best church friends I've had of my own generation were from other parishes either in the area or in far away places from where I reside.

While a lot of dirty laundry has been aired out in this thread (a very therapeutic exercise I might add), I think that if we revisit the original problem of Gurney's situation then again and again, let us beat the dead horse unto the Lord....

Gurney, as limited in number as they may be in your area find another parish to go to at least once a month until Joseph Hazen can be your next-door priest

 

[~Anastasia~]

E.C.,

Thanks for understanding and for this post. Yeah, it's tough, man. Our deacon has a VERY odd family. His middle and oldest daughters dress in these bizarre Stevie Nicks-style getups with LOADS of super black emo/goth eyeliner to DL. They look like they're going to a gypsy Halloween carnival. They get several odd looks, especially from me! Then the youngest daughter is snobby to new kids and several girls, then his only son is an altar boy EVERY week, and that kid is a terror behind the iconostasis! Trust me, that little boy is ADHD unmedicated! He has been over to our house and he tore up my son's bedroom like you can't believe. He has a reputation at his school (where his dad, the deacon, is principal I might add!) for being OFF-THE-HOOK bad to deal with!

The deacon lives in Visalia, like me. He drives to Fresno hundreds and hundreds of times a year as deacon. He's VERY committed, but he works such long hours and added this diaconate onto his heaping pile, and he and his wife are just SPENT. She's the CEO of a local after school program that is quite extensive in the Valley, and between the two of them, they really don't parent their kids. Their house is piled high with dishes, garbage, looks hordersish. They're something else. In over their heads.

There are a lot of kids at our parish who are just not friendly. Sucks. I just thank God that my 3 kids have each other to cope!

I am reminded of the instructions given by Paul that a man ought to be a good manager in his own home before he is given management in the house of God.

Of course we know the Scriptures contain wisdom ...

 

[ArmyMatt]

The funny thing is, my parish IS SUPER BLESSED with children. Honestly, we have children coming out our ears! They're everywhere! I've never seen so many! It's crazy....but, even the kids are cliqued up and don't give off a friendly vibe. After communion, our kids go to the doors waiting to go with their teachers to church school. Every time Veronica is done communing, takes her antidoron, and stands in the corner away from the other kids. They don't try to be her friend, and she's very uncomfortable trying to be theirs. Luke and Caleb then finish communing, they go over, and she lights up now that my two boys are there! My boys can't make friends there either. It's not just dad who has trouble fitting in at this quirky cliqued up parish, my kids struggle, too! My wife is about the only person who is well-liked by all and makes friends quickly.

that's sad, sorry to hear that man. continued prayers.