Southern Baptist Leader calls Muhammad a pedophile

[Sauron]

This is one more reason why fundamentalists get laughed at in general society.


http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/cf.crossfire/index.html

Muslims angered by Baptist criticism

Southern Baptist leader has prompted Muslims to accuse the denomination of bigotry.

During a Monday evening conference at the annual Southern Baptist Convention meeting in St. Louis, Missouri, the Rev. Jerry Vines told conventioneers "that Islam is not just as good as Christianity."

"Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives -- and his last one was a 9-year-old girl," said Vines, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida, and a former Southern Baptist Convention president.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Sauron
This is one more reason why fundamentalists get laughed at in general society.


http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/cf.crossfire/index.html

Personally, I agree with him and I'm an atheist.

Islam is a significant ideological threat to the West and we have to stop being politically correct about identifying this threat for what it is.

People need to wake up about what is going on.

 

[Auntie]

I agree with you, Ray K. We have to wake up and realize, political correctness has opened the door to many of our problems.

This is a very disturbing story:

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/6/142002a.asp

"Wisconsin Doctor expelled for questioning Islam

By Fred Jackson
June 14, 2002

(AgapePress) - There is a shocking report this morning out of Wisconsin involving a young Christian doctor who says medical school officials are persecuting him for daring to ask questions at a pro-Islamic lecture.

This past January when Dr. Michael Curtiss -- a second year resident at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine -- attended a required lecture given by two Islamic students.

Although medical topics were supposed to be discussed, Curtiss says it turned into a 2½ hour promotion of Islam including the singing of prayers to Allah and the voicing of support for homicide bombers.

Curtiss says he respectfully challenged some of their points during the lecture. Within a few days, he was informed by the Family Medicine Department that his contract was not going to be renewed. No explanation was given for the termination.

And now, according to WorldNetDaily, it appears Curtiss may be getting the same treatment from a residency program at Michigan State University.

Curtiss says after winning a job there a few months ago -- and moving his family to start work on July 1 -- he has received a letter rescinding the job offer.

Curtiss says he has decided to go public with his story now because he just wants people to realize "The liberal universities and colleges in this country are morally, intellectually and ideologically bankrupt."

 

[Susan]

I believe that Islam is a false faith.
Now be careful about posting threads on Islam like this. Last time I posted some, this man named ping pong provided us with enough Islamic SPAM to fill a boat.
peace, (and please do not ban me. If anyone finds this offensive I ask the mod to edit it.)
(edited: i realize that my mocking the shahida confession might have offended someone, and I sure don't want to offend Muslims. . . )

 

[chickenman]

muslims feel the same way about christian infidels, so who is right? neither is my answer

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Ray K


Personally, I agree with him and I'm an atheist.

Islam is a significant ideological threat to the West and we have to stop being politically correct about identifying this threat for what it is.

People need to wake up about what is going on.

Upon what grounds do you think that Islam is an ideological threat to the West?

Considering that Islam is a religion with almost zero following in the west, and nowhere on the horizon is it making any significant inroads?

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
I agree with you, Ray K. We have to wake up and realize, political correctness has opened the door to many of our problems.

This is a very disturbing story:

http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/6/142002a.asp

"Wisconsin Doctor expelled for questioning Islam

By Fred Jackson
June 14, 2002

(AgapePress) - There is a shocking report this morning out of Wisconsin involving a young Christian doctor who says medical school officials are persecuting him for daring to ask questions at a pro-Islamic lecture.

This past January when Dr. Michael Curtiss -- a second year resident at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine -- attended a required lecture given by two Islamic students.

Although medical topics were supposed to be discussed, Curtiss says it turned into a 2½ hour promotion of Islam including the singing of prayers to Allah and the voicing of support for homicide bombers.

Curtiss says he respectfully challenged some of their points during the lecture. Within a few days, he was informed by the Family Medicine Department that his contract was not going to be renewed. No explanation was given for the termination.

And now, according to WorldNetDaily, it appears Curtiss may be getting the same treatment from a residency program at Michigan State University.

Curtiss says after winning a job there a few months ago -- and moving his family to start work on July 1 -- he has received a letter rescinding the job offer.

Curtiss says he has decided to go public with his story now because he just wants people to realize "The liberal universities and colleges in this country are morally, intellectually and ideologically bankrupt."

First suggestion: get your information sources from someplace other than a christian newswire and WorldNutDaily. The second, at least, is nothing but a rightwing entertainment/propaganda wire, similar to Rush Limbaugh. I know nothing about agapepress, so I won't comment.

However, if this story is true, you shouldn't have any problem finding it in Wisconsin local newspaper's website.

 

[TC]

LOL! So, you don't like my man Rush, huh? Do you listen to him?

Isn't the Muslims, by their own religions mandate, to spread Islam throughout the world, and isn't "no" really not a good answer to a society not wanting to convert?

You'd better check the numbers again; there are many Muslim followers in this nation, and more converts and emmigrants everyday.

The Islamic states see us as evil because we support the Jew, and they call for our destruction. Many Arab clerics are in this country, teaching hate and calling for the destruction of this nation as it is, to the converts. They have no more love for us than they do for Israel. Read what a "moderate state", Saudi Arabia, aired on its state T.V. This is from Fox News; you may declare it to be a conservative mouthpiece, I dunno. It's here to read if you want:
Saudi Broadcasts Promote Anti-Semitism, Martyrdom








FNC
Saturday, June 15, 2002
By Amy C. Sims


NEW YORK — A television station backed by a Saudi prince has sparked outrage by broadcasting clips that show young children being taught to hate Jews — referring to them as "apes and pigs" — and embrace martyrdom.


Recent broadcasts on Iqraa Television, one of the global satellite channels packaged by the Arab Radio and Television Network (ART), a Saudi-based company, features anti-Semitic interviews with a father, a psychiatrist and even a 3-year-old girl.




Related

• Raw Data: Interview With Saudi Girl





During a May 7 episode of Muslim Woman Magazine, anchorwoman Doaa 'Amer asks her special guest, a 3-year-old girl named Basmallah, a series of questions the youngster quickly and calmly answers.



FNC
"Are you familiar with the Jews?" Amer asks.

The girl says yes, and says she does not like them "because…they’re apes and pigs."

"Who said so?" the anchor asks. "Our God," the girl replies, adding that Allah says this "in the Quran."

In another interview broadcast in April, Prof. 'Adel Sadeq, which the station identifies as head of a psychiatry faculty at a university in Cairo, talks of Islamic martyrs reaching "the apex of happiness."



FNC
"The height of ecstasy and happiness — and I am talking to you as a professional, a psychiatrist — comes the moment ... just like the producer told you: ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, and then he presses the button to blow himself up.

"The most beautiful moment, for which he would have time speed up, is the moment he says "one ... this man explodes, and he feels that he is flying."

On another program, a father discusses what lessons he’s sharing with his son.

"I am already preparing him for martyrdom, either mine or his. He asks me: If I carry out an operation and blow myself up, will Allah give me a car, a rifle to shoot with, toys? I answer him, ‘You will get everything you ask for.’"

The Middle East Media Research Institute translated and released the videotape compilation, with English subtitles, from the ART, which has transmission facilities in Italy and describes itself as "the leading producer of premium Arabic family programming and entertainment worldwide."

Widely watched Iqraa television is ART's effort to provide "a focused insight into the teachings of the Quran" to "intellectual, elite, and conservative Islamic markets."

Prince Alaweed, a member of the Saudi royal family, is reportedly a major backer of ART. He made headlines in the United States last year when he tried to donate $10 million to the World Trade Center relief effort, but was rebuffed by then New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani after saying U.S. support for Israel in part prompted the Sept. 11 attacks.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by TC
LOL! So, you don't like my man Rush, huh? Do you listen to him?

I have. Used to catch him occasionally on TV as well. It was fun watching him distort readily-available information. And it was sad to see all the uneducated people that chimed in to agree.

Isn't the Muslims, by their own religions mandate, to spread Islam throughout the world,

Islam and christianity have the same mandate: make converts. So what?

and isn't "no" really not a good answer to a society not wanting to convert?

Societies don't convert - individuals do. And people are not forced to convert to Islam. So I am at a loss as to why you thought you had a point here.

You'd better check the numbers again; there are many Muslim followers in this nation,

No, actually there are not. According to the 1991 World Almanac, Muslims number only 5.2 million in the United States. That's about 1.9% of the population.

They have more converts and emmigrants everyday.

That is true of every religion - there are more Catholics today than there were 50 years ago, due to both immigration and Catholics having babies. But the largest source of current immigration to the United States is, by far and away *not* from Islamic countries. From Britannica:

Immigration (1995{4}): permanent immigrants admitted 720,500, from Mexico 12.5%, Philippines 7.1%, Vietnam 5.8%, Dominican Republic 5.3%, China 4.9%, India 4.8%, Cuba 2.5%, Ukraine 2.4%, Jamaica 2.3%, South Korea 2.2%, Russia 2.0%, Poland 1.9%, Haiti 1.8%, Canada 1.8%, United Kingdom 1.7%, El Salvador 1.6%, Colombia 1.5%. Refugee arrivals (1995 {4}): 114,664.

Wow. No Mideast countries in there at all. Hmm. How can that be? Hmm?

You, my friend, are just another victim of right-wing scare tactics. You shouldn't swallow misinformation so readily.

The Islamic states see us as evil because we support the Jew, and they call for our destruction.

Not precisely. Some Islamic states see us as evil. But not all of them.

Many Arab clerics are in this country, teaching hate and calling for the destruction of this nation as it is, to the converts.

Also false. There are a handful of bigots and zealots on *every* side. But your claim that "many Arab clerics are in this country" is nonsense.

They have no more love for us than they do for Israel. Read what a "moderate state", Saudi Arabia, aired on its state T.V. This is from Fox News; you may declare it to be a conservative mouthpiece, I dunno. It's here to read if you want:

Saudi Broadcasts Promote Anti-Semitism, Martyrdom

I'm not sure what you think this proves. An opinion piece aired on Saudi TV. Yep. My question is:

So what?

That doesn't mean that it is the official position of teh government. The article plainly states that it is on only one channel that is part of a cable/satellite package.

That's like saying the US govt stands behind everything that appears on the Sci-Fi Channel or The History Channel.

It also explicitly says:

Widely watched Iqraa television is ART's effort to provide "a focused insight into the teachings of the Quran" to "intellectual, elite, and conservative Islamic markets."

So it's a religious program to boot. The Saudi version of "The 700 Club". Again: big deal. The US govt doesn't stand behind everything said on "The 700 Club", and there's no reason to believe that the Saudi govt stands behind what Iqraa TV says.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"And people are not forced to convert to Islam."

You really don't know much about Islam do you? I have a friend that was married to a person of the faith and also use to talk to a 19 year old guy that is one in Saudia Arabia and that statement is very untrue, specially in the Middle East. If you convert FROM Islam in many places you better run for you life. If you a visiting Christian you better watch your back. Many have a HATE for Christians. I know this straight from the mouth of a person that was married to one so can't get a better source then that.

"Islam and christianity have the same mandate: make converts. So what? "

Sure as I Christian I want people to come to God. Problem is many people of Islam don't take no lightly and their bible tells them how to handle those type of people.

Problem with media is to many people want to candy coat this religon for sake of "religious tolerance".

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Sauron

First suggestion: get your information sources from someplace other than a christian newswire and WorldNutDaily. The second, at least, is nothing but a rightwing entertainment/propaganda wire, similar to Rush Limbaugh. I know nothing about agapepress, so I won't comment.

However, if this story is true, you shouldn't have any problem finding it in Wisconsin local newspaper's website.

The story came from agapepress, as the link clearly shows.

Why do you object to the story? Do you not like to hear the truth?

Now let me give you a suggestion, don't try to make the truth a lie.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Sauron


Upon what grounds do you think that Islam is an ideological threat to the West?

Considering that Islam is a religion with almost zero following in the west, and nowhere on the horizon is it making any significant inroads?

Islam is an ideological threat because there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world and their religion makes no distinction between the church and state. In addition, Muslims I have talked too consider the West to be decadent and talk openly of converting the West to Islam. The use of force is OK because the end justifies the means. And once a convert is gained, apostasy carries a death sentence.

Personally, I do not think that the West will lose this battle simply because we are too strong. However, we do not help ourselves by telling ourselves that Islam is a peaceful religion. All prosletyzing religions will resort to force when peaceful persuasion fails and Islam is no exception.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Ray K
Islam is an ideological threat because there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world

Out of six billion people in the world. So somehow, 16.6% of the world is an ideological threat. I find your notion of odds to be ... interesting.

and their religion makes no distinction between the church and state.

Actually, it does. In the same fashion that christianity does. In modern practice, there are countries that are nominally christian or muslim, where separation of church & state is part of the national legal framework.

And, of course, in modern practice, there are countries where church and state mix.

So far, I would say that christianity and islam are about equal on this point. So my question back to you is: why do you consider Islam a threat, and not christianity?

In addition, Muslims I have talked too consider the West to be decadent and talk openly of converting the West to Islam.

And christians that I have talked to describe Muslim countries as lost and they talk openly of evangelizing those countries.

In fact, "60 Minutes: II" did a special segment last week on the mother of one of the women arrested in Afghanistan for spreading christianity. There is some kind of movement among Southern Baptists today to target Islamic countries for evangelization. From the standpoint of Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia, they could very well say that christianity is an eroding influence, that needs to be confronted because it threatens the foundation of their societies.

So far it sounds like Islam is the mirror image of christianity, so I'm still unclear as to what your specific complaint is.

I mean - as long as we are being unbiased and impartial in examining all the facts, of course.

The use of force is OK because the end justifies the means.

This is not in Islam. Period. Any more than it is a part of true christian evangelization.

But as long as you are objecting to force, I'd like to hear your views on forced prayer in schools, forced conversios of native americans, etc.

And once a convert is gained, apostasy carries a death sentence.

Possibly true for Taliban-era Afghanistan. For other countries, your statement is nonsense.

Personally, I do not think that the West will lose this battle simply because we are too strong. However, we do not help ourselves by telling ourselves that Islam is a peaceful religion.

At heart, it is a peaceful religion. Just because 2% of its adherents hijack the faith and attach false beliefs to it - well, that doesn't invalidate the viewpoint of the other 98% of Islam.

All prosletyzing religions will resort to force when peaceful persuasion fails and Islam is no exception.

Whether that is true or not....I find it interesting how you can say all that, and yet turn a blind eye to christianity's history.

 

[Susan]

So you are not a Christian.
Are you Muslim?

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by Susan
So you are not a Christian.

Correct.

Are you Muslim?

No.

1. I just happen to know a few things about Islam.

2. And I'm just one of those strange and weird people who actually bothers to research the things that I talk about --- before I actually talk about them.

 

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Sauron


Out of six billion people in the world. So somehow, 16.6% of the world is an ideological threat. I find your notion of odds to be ... interesting.

Actually, it does. In the same fashion that christianity does. In modern practice, there are countries that are nominally christian or muslim, where separation of church & state is part of the national legal framework.

Ummm, the only Islamic state with a separation of church and state is Turkey and many are worried that it may not last long there.

So far, I would say that christianity and islam are about equal on this point. So my question back to you is: why do you consider Islam a threat, and not christianity?

Where did I say Christianity was not a threat?

And christians that I have talked to describe Muslim countries as lost and they talk openly of evangelizing those countries.

Right. Your point?

In fact, "60 Minutes: II" did a special segment last week on the mother of one of the women arrested in Afghanistan for spreading christianity. There is some kind of movement among Southern Baptists today to target Islamic countries for evangelization. From the standpoint of Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia, they could very well say that christianity is an eroding influence, that needs to be confronted because it threatens the foundation of their societies.

Right. Your point?

So far it sounds like Islam is the mirror image of christianity, so I'm still unclear as to what your specific complaint is.

That Islam is an ideological threat to the West: democracy, individualism, capitalism, religious tolerance.

These are all concepts that moderate Christianity endorses. There is no form of Islam that does the same. In fact, every Muslim I've talked to (many moderate) truly believe that Sharia is the guide to living in a perfect society.

I mean - as long as we are being unbiased and impartial in examining all the facts, of course.

What facts did I leave out? That Christianity shares many of the same problems as Islam? Does modern Christianity impose the death penalty for those who leave the faith?

This is not in Islam. Period. Any more than it is a part of true christian evangelization.

And who said it wasn't?

But as long as you are objecting to force, I'd like to hear your views on forced prayer in schools, forced conversios of native americans, etc.

Dude. Don't even get me started about the government-sanctioned genocide of the American Indian.

Possibly true for Taliban-era Afghanistan. For other countries, your statement is nonsense.

At heart, it is a peaceful religion. Just because 2% of its adherents hijack the faith and attach false beliefs to it - well, that doesn't invalidate the viewpoint of the other 98% of Islam.

And the 98% who let the 2% dictate their religion share the blame. Of course, 2% is your number. It is certainly much higher.

Whether that is true or not....I find it interesting how you can say all that, and yet turn a blind eye to christianity's history.

The subject of this thread concerns Islam, and I have criticized Islam. In your zeal to judge me, you have obviously assumed that I am a Christian.

That was an air ball.

 

[TC]

History does not hold true that Islam is a peaceful religion, unless you are considering when there are no other beliefs around them.
There are people all over the world that would argue that the most dangerous place to be is neighbors with an Islamic nation, or to live in one if you aren't of that belief.
By the way, if you think that the Southern Baptists and Christianity is the same as Islam, there is no real reason to seriously discuss it, so I won't bother. I also won't quote respond for ever more and a day. I will say, that if you actually meant that in Taliban-era Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq and Syria, other than that you are incorrect, Sauron. And I don't mean 100 years ago, either; I mean this year.

Force in Christianity, I'm sure you will point to the crusades, and I'm sure you will forget that Christians were killed as well as Muslims, since the crusades were political, the "crusaders" more likely not Christian and most likely not concerned with any honorable reason for the Crusades. The church at that time told the populace what do think, as the polpulace were not even allowed to read the Word for themselves. To even attempt to compare Christianity's evangelism to the spreading of Islam is to not look at what the two religions stand for, the way each is to treat others, and to look around and understand what is going on today.
If you want to compare, let's compare how the Founding Fathers said the government wouldn't establish a federally recognized religion, since even though this was a Judeo-Christian nation we had numerous denominations and they all needed to peacefully co-exist. In Iraq, the Southern no-fly zone is to ensure the Zunni-run government does not slaughter the Shi'ites; both Muslim, just a different denomination.
(Here is where you can point out recent eventsin the U.S., like how the government slaughtered a ranch full of people with a different view of Christ. Remember Waco?)
Sauron, I'd certainly like to be wrong, and maybe I am as you are sure that I am, but I see history, both recent and not so recent, showing that Islam is a threat, as we are seen as a threat to them.

 

[coastie]

Refering to forceful conversion...

This is not in Islam. Period. Any more than it is a part of true christian evangelization.

LOL... that's a joke right?

Did you skip over the part about Jihad in your extensive studies of the Islamic faith and history? You need to study the history of Islamic Jihad in the middle east again. You will find some disturbing facts.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by coastie
Refering to forceful conversion...

LOL... that's a joke right?

No, it's a fact.

Did you skip over the part about Jihad in your extensive studies of the Islamic faith and history?

I skipped over nothing. Jihad is probably the most misunderstood term in Islam today. Your post is just another evidence for that. Jihad (in that context) is in defense of the faith.

Nor did I skip over the forceful conversions that christianity perpetrated in Europe, Asia, Africa, North and South America. Christians forcibly converted pagans in early Europe. They pulled the same stunt in North America and South America with the native American populations. Christian missionaries burned holy objects, texts, killed Indian priests, etc. Oh, and they also conducted crusades against the Muslims for over a hundred years.

However, neither Islam nor christianity practice forceful conversion today. So I wasn't going to hold christianity's past history against it when evaluating its current performance. But we can go there if you want; should be fun.

Oh, and my "extensive studies" of Islamic faith and history include a B.A. in Mideast affairs and a B.A. in Arabic Language & Literature. How about you?

You need to study the history of Islamic Jihad in the middle east again. You will find some disturbing facts.

Actually, sounds more like you could use the study time.

 

[TC]

Islam does practice it today, and they do torture those who convert to Christianity, (in the countries I named above, anyway - FACT!, and would you like to discuss the Christians in Sudan? That is (or was) in mainstream news from time to time. Yup, there's alot of tolerance shown toward the Animists and Christians. Nothing like enslavement rape, torture and murder to show tolerance!