Sons of the Devil Believe in Jesus

[Wordkeeper]

This has nothing to do with what I saying.

You explained how sons of Satan had dead faith. Implying Peter had dead faith.

 

[-V-]

Well, according to the Greek they did believe in Jesus.

Like I said, I have two Greek texts. And one says "believed Him", not "in" Him. You need to substantiate why "in" is supposed to be there.

 

[Thedictator]

Jesus seems to suggest that Judas never truly believed (John 6:70).

Ether way it does not disprove my Position of Dead Faith.

 

[Tree of Life]

Another example of this same phenomenon occurs in John 6:66 after Jesus gives difficult sayings about eating his body and drinking his blood. He says to his disciples in John 6:64 that "there are some of you who do not believe". Then in John 6:66 many of his disciples walk away from him. The 12 remain, but Jesus says that even one of them is a devil (John 6:70).

So it is possible to be very closely associated with Jesus, to be numbered among the disciples, even to be among the 12 and still be, ultimately, unbelieving.

 

[Tree of Life]

Like I said, I have two Greek texts. And one says "believed Him", not "in" Him. You need to substantiate why "in" is supposed to be there.

Already did. "Him" is in the dative case:

τοὺς πεπιστευκότας αὐτῷ Ἰουδαίους

αὐτῷ means "in him".

 

[Tree of Life]

Ether way it does not disprove my Position of Dead Faith.

I agree with what you say concerning "dead faith". And I think that "dead faith" can be demonstrated.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Well, according to the Greek they did believe in Jesus.

In the Ancient Near East, pistis, mistranlated as belief, was understood to mean loyalty.

The first act of a loyal person is to acknowledge the person to whom loyalty is demanded is to acknowledge he deserves loyalty. That demons do.

Matthew 8:29
29And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

But they CAN'T move on to the next phase, act loyal: they are DEMONS!

 

[Tree of Life]

If Jesus were the direct object of their faith then "him" would be in the accusative and would look like αυτον. But, since it is in the dative we know that Jesus is the indirect object of their faith - hence they believe in him.

 

[Thedictator]

You explained how sons of Satan had dead faith. Implying Peter had dead faith.

I never implied anything about Peter, you did. I said Peter had alive Faith ( not Dead faith) The Book of James is the one who is comparing dead faith with demons.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I never implied anything about Peter, you did. I said Peter had alive Faith ( not Dead faith) The Book of James is the one who is comparing dead faith with demons.

You posted that the sons of Satan had dead faith, implying that Peter had dead faith. Can't escape that incriminating evidence.

 

[Wordkeeper]

If Jesus were the direct object of their faith then "him" would be in the accusative and would look like αυτον. But, since it is in the dative we know that Jesus is the indirect object of their faith - hence they believe in him.

Of course they do, they called him Son of God didn't they? (FIRST PHASE OF LOYALTY).

 

[paul1149]

It's similar to how demons & the devil believe who Jesus is, but they still rebel against Him.

That may be what's going on.

In v30, the TR, Vaticanus and Westcott-Holt texts all have the preposition, eis, for "in" or "on". So "some believed in Him" is pretty solid, and indicates faith in the person of Jesus.

But in v31, none of them have the preposition. But there's something else going on as well, and it's more important. The verb "believe" there is a participle, indicating action currently happening at present:

"Then Jesus said to those Jews who were believing Him".​

This places their faith in a much more tenuous light. And the following verses, beginning immediately with Jesus' exhortation to continue in their belief, will prove just how fragile and superficial their faith was.

V. 30 seems to be a broad covering statement, while v 31 then adds a lot more granularity to the narrative, to set the stage for what is going to happen. Immediately Jesus tells them that if they want to be "true" disciples, they will have to continue in His word. And immediately they position themselves pridefully against him, even telling the ridiculous lie that they have never been in bondage to anyone, even as Roman soldiers stand only yards away from where they were speaking.

The faith of these particular Jews seems to fall somewhere between the roadside and the stony ground, and probably closer to the roadside. The seed had started to get in, but immediately hit the ledge-rock of their Jewish pride.

 

[Thedictator]

You posted that the sons of Satan had death faith, implying that Peter had dead faith. Can't escape that incriminating evidence.

Except that Peter is not one of the Sons of Satan, and you trying to make him one is just asinine.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

a guy was a tightrope walker and set up his line over Niagara Falls. he went back and forth a few times and asked the crowd if they thought he could make it pushing a wheel barrow. Many said yes then he asked who would get in the wheel barrow?

this illustrates believing something and having faith in something.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Except that Peter is not one of the Sons of Satan, and you trying to make him one is just asinine.

Oh his association is not of sonship, it's worse, he IS Satan!

 

[dqhall]

In John 8 we encounter a group of Jews who were believing in Jesus...



Although they believe in Jesus, they do not appear to truly be his disciples. A corrective from Jesus is needed...



Jesus then goes on to say to these believers that they are slaves of sin (John 8:34), his word finds no place in them (John 8:37), that their father is the devil and not God (John 8:44), and that they do not believe in Jesus (John 8:45).

How is it possible to be both believing and unbelieving at the same time? How is it possible to be a believer in Jesus and yet a son of the devil, as John shows us?

I think Jesus was speaking to an audience of those who believed and others who did not believe in John 8.

There is one instance of Mark's Gospel of man seeking healing for his epileptic son:
Mark 9:24 (WEB) Immediately the father of the child cried out with tears, "I believe. Help my unbelief!"

In Matthew 16:18, Jesus praised Peter and told him he was the rock on which his church was going to be built. A few verses later is the description of another time when Jesus rebuked Peter for being false and said, "Get behind me Satan." Matthew 16:23.

 

[-V-]

Already did. "Him" is in the dative case:

τοὺς πεπιστευκότας αὐτῷ Ἰουδαίους

αὐτῷ means "in him".

Dative case just indicates the object. There's still nothing showing it's "in" Him.
Dative case - Wikipedia

 

[Wordkeeper]

OSAS needs faith to be unchangeable, willfully ignoring the reality that faith is a changing state, as depicted in several cases in Scripture.

 

[Tree of Life]

Dative case just indicates the object. There's still nothing showing it's "in" Him.
Dative case - Wikipedia

A preposition must be supplied since it's in the dative. Which would you supply?

Take some Greek courses and call me back.

 

[Tree of Life]

Dative case just indicates the object. There's still nothing showing it's "in" Him.
Dative case - Wikipedia

Also, to correct you here, Dative indicates the indirect object, not simply an object. The direct object is indicated by the accusative case.