"Sodom and Gomorah" Tories /Lib Dems

[mindlight]

Advocating the death penalty based on someone's sexual orientation is inhuman.

And if your God is responsible for creation, he's downright sadistic for creating them that way, only to be killed due to the way he made them.

God created a good creation. He created a free creation. The exercise of freewill brought sin. But God has made it possible through Jesus Christ that by His grace and mercy mankind can be redeemed.

In his love he made us free not robots and developed a plan for our redemption. There is no escaping the judgment we deserve if we do not accept his love.

 

[super animator]

Its amazing you think killing people just for being gay is not immoral.

It makes me glad that Christianity is on the decline in the UK. Every year the odd's of someone with views like your own getting into power are slimmer and slimmer.

Nobody chooses to be gay, just like you didn't choose to be straight. You just are, and so are they.

Enjoy your slide in obscurity!

Don't let a vocal minority change your views of Christianity that easily.

 

[mindlight]

Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex - life - 16 June 2008 - New Scientist

Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.

The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.

Psychiatry and LGB people

Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences have any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation (Bell and Weinberg, 1978).


It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by genetic factors (Mustanski et al, 2005) and/or the early uterine environment (Blanchard et al. 2006). Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice, though sexual behaviour clearly is.

Epigenetics may be a critical factor contributing to homosexuality, study suggests

The study solves the evolutionary riddle of homosexuality, finding that "sexually antagonistic" epi-marks, which normally protect parents from natural variation in sex hormone levels during fetal development, sometimes carryover across generations and cause homosexuality in opposite-sex offspring. The mathematical modeling demonstrates that genes coding for these epi-marks can easily spread in the population because they always increase the fitness of the parent but only rarely escape erasure and reduce fitness in offspring.

"Transmission of sexually antagonistic epi-marks between generations is the most plausible evolutionary mechanism of the phenomenon of human homosexuality," said the study's co-author Sergey Gavrilets, NIMBioS' associate director for scientific activities and a professor at the University of Tennessee-Knoxville.

The sample sizes are small , do not allow or account for the exceptions. The scans are not detailed enough to interpret the evidence properly. Also so what if a person is genetically disposed to homosexuality or not. That does not alter their moral requirement to resist it anymore than some one genetically predisposed to adultery or murder would be expected to master themselves.

You realise that if being gay is genetic then the possibility may one day arise that with a sophisticated enough understanding of our genetic structure a person could be reengineered to be hetrosexual. The real question is not whether a person is genetically predisposed to this or that sin but rather how they exercise their own moral accountability in dealing with that.

You've already been shown your understanding of the Biblical verses are wrong. The Torah does not condemn homosexuals, because lesbians are homosexual and never mentioned in the Torah. Countless Christians disagree with you on this. There is no singular PoV. Even many of the early church fathers said you're wrong as do most scholars.

The teaching of the church is clear the New Testament does condemn lesbian acts also as a symptom of extreme spiritual degeneration (Romans 1).

 

[mindlight]

Its amazing you think killing people just for being gay is not immoral.

It makes me glad that Christianity is on the decline in the UK. Every year the odd's of someone with views like your own getting into power are slimmer and slimmer.

Nobody chooses to be gay, just like you didn't choose to be straight. You just are, and so are they.

Enjoy your slide in obscurity!

The bible allows for the execution of homosexuals who have practiced gay sex. It also teaches us to be slow to punish a sinner who stands a reasonable chance of being brought to repentance and Gods mercy. This has fed into Christian interpretations of law and governance and explains the tolerance that atheists and other minority groups have enjoyed in most Christian countries over the last 200 years. But at the end of the day there will be an accounting and God will pop all the atheists bubbles of self delusion.

The statistics show only a decline in cultural Christianity not the true church. From your point of view Christians may increasingly come to seem like a starker choice than you are currently prepared to make. When the consequences of godlessness become clear to you I pray you will change your mind. But that cannot happen until your illusions and indeed that of many Christians presentations of the gospel are debunked. As while the love of most grows cold that of God endures forever and He is your only chance to be saved from your sins.

 

[mindlight]

It is sickening. And to think that religion claims rights over morality, whilst promoting such blind hatred.

Hatred of sin. Spiritual blindness is an atheist problem not a Christian one.

 

[super animator]

Hatred of sin. Spiritual blindness is an atheist problem not a Christian one.

If promoting killing gays isn't promoting hatred in your eyes than your blind.

 

[super animator]

The statistics show only a decline in cultural Christianity not the true church.

Oh look another no true scots man fallacy that you conservatives evangelist love to use.

 

[mindlight]

If promoting killing gays isn't promoting hatred in your eyes than your blind.

I suggest you reread what has been written because I have not promoted killing gays for being gays.

First it is gay practice that is frowned on in the bible not the fact that this persons particular struggle is with homosexual impulses.

Second Gay people like anyone else are made in Gods image and worthy of that respect as moral agents accountable for their actions and able to make choices

Third while the Ugandan governments decisions to execute gays are not in themselves immoral nor are they a complete witness to Gods grace and mercy and I would prefer to live in a more tolerant society that gave more scope to the possibility of repentance and forgiveness. Execute a gay man caught in the act and you may well send an unrepentant sinner to hell. Give him a chance to turn from his ways and he may be saved at a later date.

Fourth the scriptures are very clear about the eternal (and in the case of Israels theocracy) temporal consequences of the sin of homosexuality. It is a symptom of extreme spiritual degeneration and I do hope that it is not your intention or practice to offer cheap grace to sinners as that is an insult to the extreme sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross in order to save Homosexuals that repent of their sins.

 

[super animator]

I suggest you reread what has been written because I have not promoted killing gays for being gays.

First it is gay practice that is frowned on in the bible not the fact that this persons particular struggle is with homosexual impulses.

Pretty sure that you comment that you don't see immortal for killing gays for "acts" whatever that means.

 

[mindlight]

Oh look another no true scots man fallacy that you conservatives evangelist love to use.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7707988/

 

[super animator]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7707988/

Red-herring

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We are made in the image of God. You have missed the thing that distinguishes our cosmic significance from that of star dust.

Why can't we be cosmically significant and originate from star dust? Why must we be cosmically significant in the first place? Given that we are that part of the universe that is able to think and ponder the rest of the universe, I would argue that we are indeed cosmically significant in at least one sense.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

"Noone is righteous not even one" which makes it interesting that people are often so surprised when devastation comes. Within living memory many of Europes cities were reduced to rubble and yet people act as if there is no consequence for sin.

The spiritual degeneration of Germany was evident even in the nineteenth century and the theological liberalism that much of Europe bought into in the late nineteenth century and which oriignated in Germany was the real root of the troubles of the twentieth century. Both Communism and Nazism and the current decadent Liberal Progressivism originate in the thoughts of those times.



I think God allowed an eruption of evil , the consequences of which was fully deserved both as a rebuke to the racism, spiritual degeneration ,deceitfulness and pride of Europes Christian churches and peoples and also to achieve his purpose not just for Israel but for the whole world.

So you think that God deliberately allowed WW2 to happen as a punishment for 'spiritual degeneration'? This God sought to punish even innocent children for the sins of their parents? Children who were shot and gased alongside their parents. What a wicked deity you believe in.

 

[Dave Ellis]

There is nothing immoral about punishing immoral acts. Whether or not most people would want to live in a society or legal regime where the earthly consequences of ones sins were so stark is another matter.

Actually, yes there is.

If the punishment to Germany for the holocaust was the extermination of the German population, that would be immoral.

Punishing an immoral action can be done in a moral way, or an immoral way. Advocating the murder of one person, or an entire demographic is never a moral punishment for something like Homosexuality.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I have examined the authority of scripture quite deeply and been challenged on it frequently but remain convinced of this.

And what method did you use to determine your findings that Scripture is anything more than the writings of ancient people thousands of years ago.

One can struggle with passages and especially in a culture such as our own where ones presupposition pool is most likely polluted with all sorts of Liberal nonsence but the truth remains.

I'd rather live in a society "polluted by liberal nonsense" than a society polluted by immoral teachings left over from the Bronze Age.

You cannot and will not understand it if you hate the God that revealed these words.

I don't hate your God, I don't believe he exists. You might as well accuse me of hating Darth Vader because I think he was an immoral tyrant in the star wars movies too.

They are characters in a story, nothing more.

We are made in the image of God. You have missed the thing that distinguishes our cosmic significance from that of star dust.

And what exactly is the image of God? I was lead to believe by another Christian that he is immaterial.

And what's wrong with Star Dust? Like all life we know of, we are carbon based, and carbon is produced by stars.

 

[Dave Ellis]

We do not live in a theocracy. But if you accept the murder of the unborn you already condone the genocide of children.

Way to dodge the question, do you care to answer it, or are you going to try to red herring it away again?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Anyone who believes in Jesus's miracles (you clearly don't) can believe that biological change is possible but it is not necessary in the case of repentance from gay sex. The Christian moral view is that acts of gay sex are an abomination and someone who is attracted to a member of the same sex should not be having sex with them. In much the same way as a married hetrosexual man may be attracted to other women but should try as best he can to keep his thoughts under control and not to act on them and commit adultery.

And how moral is it for your god to create someone gay, then expect them to abstain from their sexual impulses for their entire lives?

It is clear that you do not believe in God as you could not say the things that you do if you did.

Very true.

No he confesses to being bisexual in his attractions and it seems that he has masturbated in the presence of other men for instance but there is no evidence, that I am aware of, of physical contact sex with other men. Despite the scandals, hypocrisy and clear deceits that he has been guilty of he did commit himself to a process of renewal, he remained committed to his wife with whom he has had 5 kids. I doubt if he and I would differ on the biblical case against homosexual practice but clearly this is something he has had to struggle with and to a considerable extent in the most recent time period appears to have managed properly.

Come on... the guy was meeting a male escort in a motel room. You're telling me there was no sexual contact?

As for his process of renewal, he made the claim once he was done that he was completely heterosexual, which is what prompted that song, and a fair amount of ridicule.

I can give him the benefit of the doubt and agree he's likely bi, but he's certainly not completely heterosexual.

Yes there is no contradiction here.

Uh, what? Who agrees with imposing the death penalty on someone from a position of love? Places with Capital punishment don't impose the death penalty out of love, they impose it as the highest possible penalty for heinous crimes.

 

[Dave Ellis]

"Noone is righteous not even one" which makes it interesting that people are often so surprised when devastation comes. Within living memory many of Europes cities were reduced to rubble and yet people act as if there is no consequence for sin.

Well, if nobody is righteous, then why is he singling out Germany for punishment, especially if they'd moved closer to his anti-homosexual laws over the previous decade?

The spiritual degeneration of Germany was evident even in the nineteenth century and the theological liberalism that much of Europe bought into in the late nineteenth century and which oriignated in Germany was the real root of the troubles of the twentieth century. Both Communism and Nazism and the current decadent Liberal Progressivism originate in the thoughts of those times.

But as stated above, the Nazis were directly opposed to homosexuality whereas other European countries were starting to become more tolerant. If anything, that brought Germany closer to spiritual renewal if we're looking at Biblical law in this regard.

And if anything, going by the gospels the worlds first socialist was Jesus.

I think God allowed an eruption of evil , the consequences of which was fully deserved both as a rebuke to the racism, spiritual degeneration ,deceitfulness and pride of Europes Christian churches and peoples and also to achieve his purpose not just for Israel but for the whole world.

If God was all powerful and good, then it would be against his character to allow an eruption of evil.

 

[Dave Ellis]

God created a good creation. He created a free creation. The exercise of freewill brought sin. But God has made it possible through Jesus Christ that by His grace and mercy mankind can be redeemed.

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that we were created free. Going by the way the story unfolds, I think it's quite clear we are not free if God exists.

In his love he made us free not robots and developed a plan for our redemption. There is no escaping the judgment we deserve if we do not accept his love.[/quote]

Again, there is no Biblical justification for your claim. However again, why would he create people sick, then create some scheme by which to make them well? Wouldn't a moral being just create them well to begin with and protect them from sickness? This is not a good creation if he purposefully designed things this way.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Hatred of sin. Spiritual blindness is an atheist problem not a Christian one.

Sin doesn't exist.

(Don't get me wrong, Good and bad actions exist.)