"Sodom and Gomorah" Tories /Lib Dems

[Dave Ellis]

Homosexual acts are inhuman.

Advocating the death penalty based on someone's sexual orientation is inhuman.

And if your God is responsible for creation, he's downright sadistic for creating them that way, only to be killed due to the way he made them.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

Advocating the death penalty based on someone's sexual orientation is inhuman.

And thus, the two of you can go on yelling "Inhuman!!!" about eachother. Let us adults know when you're finished.

And if your God is responsible for creation, he's downright sadistic for creating them that way, only to be killed due to the way he made them.

1: The jury is still out on whether or not homophilia is completely genetic; completely a product of nature and nurture, or a combination of the two.

2: Even IF a decision is eventually reached, that it IS completely genetic, it still would not mean that homophilia is part of God's purpose, just as people being born with other genetic diseases does not prove that those diseases were part of the plan, either.

3: There is no logical route from: "Uganda passes this law" (which I hope they won't - at least not one penalizing the mere fact that someone's a homophiliac) to "God wanted this to happen".

 

[Marius27]

1: The jury is still out on whether or not homophilia is completely genetic; completely a product of nature and nurture, or a combination of the two.

No it isn't. No evidence exists that nurture plays any role in sexual orientation. The gay brain is physically structured differently, and the structures that are different are nearly fully developed by birth.

2: Even IF a decision is eventually reached, that it IS completely genetic, it still would not mean that homophilia is part of God's purpose, just as people being born with other genetic diseases does not prove that those diseases were part of the plan, either.

Psalm 139:13

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made

How do you know that it isn't part of God's purpose? Maybe you're wrong, and God created gays for a very specific purpose that you don't understand.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

No it isn't. No evidence exists that nurture plays any role in sexual orientation. The gay brain is physically structured differently, and the structures that are different are nearly fully developed by birth.

Peer-reviewed source?

How do you know that it isn't part of God's purpose? Maybe you're wrong, and God created gays for a very specific purpose that you don't understand.

How do you know that necrophilia isn't part of God's purpose?
Easy: God (in the only sources of revelation He's given to us: The Torah, and, from a Christian POV, Jesus the Messiah) has said very clearly that sexuality is man + woman. Not man + man, man + corpse, woman + corpse, woman + woman, etc.
In God, there is no darkness at all, and though He can certainly turn evil to useful purposes, once the evil has been committed, He is not evil, and does no evil.

 

[Dave Ellis]

And thus, the two of you can go on yelling "Inhuman!!!" about eachother. Let us adults know when you're finished.

We're finished, and my opinion was backed by ethical behaviour.

1: The jury is still out on whether or not homophilia is completely genetic; completely a product of nature and nurture, or a combination of the two.

Actually, no it's not.... the biology is pretty clear cut, and anyone who has an understanding of the subject matter is in general agreement that Homosexuality is a natural occurrence based on factors like genetics, and has nothing to do with nurture.

The only source of disagreement is from people like yourself who have no idea what they're talking about, and are biased by their religious views written by men who also had no idea what they were talking about.

2: Even IF a decision is eventually reached, that it IS completely genetic, it still would not mean that homophilia is part of God's purpose, just as people being born with other genetic diseases does not prove that those diseases were part of the plan, either.

So God's purpose is to infect them with a condition he has labelled is an abomination, with the side effect of his righteous followers targeting that person as someone to oppress or kill outright? Is that your idea of a loving being?

3: There is no logical route from: "Uganda passes this law" (which I hope they won't - at least not one penalizing the mere fact that someone's a homophiliac) to "God wanted this to happen".

Apart from the Biblical passages that tell people to kill homosexuals that are being used to justify this law that is.....

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

We're finished, and my opinion was backed by ethical behaviour.

Your behavior in this thread has hardly been "ethical", in any but the widest stretch of the word.

The only source of disagreement is from people like yourself who have no idea what they're talking about, and are biased by their religious views written by men who also had no idea what they were talking about.

"If someone disagrees with me, it's because he doesn't know what he's talking about, and if he DOES know what he's talking about, then he doesn't agree with me".
The infantilism is strong with this one....

So God's purpose is to infect them with a condition he has labelled is an abomination, with the side effect of his righteous followers targeting that person as someone to oppress or kill outright? Is that your idea of a loving being?

1: Unless you can show me someone in this thread who's suggested killing gays, you can take your red herring and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

2: Saying: "Homophilia isn't moral" isn't "oppression". And if you think it is, you do not have the first inkling of an understanding of what that word means.

Apart from the Biblical passages that tell people to kill homosexuals that are being used to justify this law that is.....

[/quote]

So, if I piece and choose enough of your combined posts into sentences, saying: "Muslims .... are dangerous .... go ... kill.... muslims", it would be logical to assume you wanted people to go kill muslims, because you've just said so in the various pieces of your various posts I put together; however stripped from their context they were?

 

[Marius27]

Peer-reviewed source?

Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex - life - 16 June 2008 - New Scientist

Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.

The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.

Psychiatry and LGB people

Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences have any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation (Bell and Weinberg, 1978).


It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by genetic factors (Mustanski et al, 2005) and/or the early uterine environment (Blanchard et al. 2006). Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice, though sexual behaviour clearly is.

Epigenetics may be a critical factor contributing to homosexuality, study suggests

The study solves the evolutionary riddle of homosexuality, finding that "sexually antagonistic" epi-marks, which normally protect parents from natural variation in sex hormone levels during fetal development, sometimes carryover across generations and cause homosexuality in opposite-sex offspring. The mathematical modeling demonstrates that genes coding for these epi-marks can easily spread in the population because they always increase the fitness of the parent but only rarely escape erasure and reduce fitness in offspring.

"Transmission of sexually antagonistic epi-marks between generations is the most plausible evolutionary mechanism of the phenomenon of human homosexuality," said the study's co-author Sergey Gavrilets, NIMBioS' associate director for scientific activities and a professor at the University of Tennessee-Knoxville.

How do you know that necrophilia isn't part of God's purpose?

This is so patently absurd it doesn't deserve a response, but why would God want us to have sex with rotting corpses? Do you have a rational argument for that?

Easy: God (in the only sources of revelation He's given to us: The Torah, and, from a Christian POV, Jesus the Messiah) has said very clearly that sexuality is man + woman. Not man + man, man + corpse, woman + corpse, woman + woman, etc.
In God, there is no darkness at all, and though He can certainly turn evil to useful purposes, once the evil has been committed, He is not evil, and does no evil.

You've already been shown your understanding of the Biblical verses are wrong. The Torah does not condemn homosexuals, because lesbians are homosexual and never mentioned in the Torah. Countless Christians disagree with you on this. There is no singular PoV. Even many of the early church fathers said you're wrong as do most scholars.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Your behavior in this thread has hardly been "ethical", in any but the widest stretch of the word.

Coming from most people, that statement would concern me. Coming from you, I can just laugh it off and admire the irony.

"If someone disagrees with me, it's because he doesn't know what he's talking about, and if he DOES know what he's talking about, then he doesn't agree with me".
The infantilism is strong with this one....

Nice strawman.

I'm not saying they don't know what they are talking about because they disagree with me, I am saying they don't know what they are talking about because their opinions fly in the face of all available empirical evidence.

Could you try putting forward an argument or rebuttal that doesn't rely on some form of logical fallacy?

1: Unless you can show me someone in this thread who's suggested killing gays, you can take your red herring and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

The people of Uganda are quite clear about the wrongness of homosexual acts and have chosen to deal with it with the death penalty. There is nothing immoral about that.

He's clearly stated that killing the gays is an acceptable way of dealing with homosexuals in Uganda.

Throughout the bible homosexual practice is regarded as a symptom of spiritual degeneration and one of those detestable practices of the nations which the Hebrew peoples were to set themselves apart from for instance.

Judges19 v 11 - 20 v 48
1 Kings 14:24;15:12;22:46

The law in Leviticus is very clear about what God thinks about homosexual practice:

Originally Posted by Leviticus 18 v 22; 20 v 13

Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.......If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.​

​

He is speaking in advocation of the Biblical passages that condemn homosexuals to death. Unless of course, he disagrees with God's law, which I find unlikely seeing as he's a Christian.

So, take the red herring back and add it to the fish market full of red herrings you seem to be accumulating.

2: Saying: "Homophilia isn't moral" isn't "oppression". And if you think it is, you do not have the first inkling of an understanding of what that word means.

Can you show me in this thread where I have made that argument?

I'll make it quick for you, since you can't do that, please don't strawman my argument again.

The oppression comes from withholding equal rights from them based on your own religious intolerance.

So, if I piece and choose enough of your combined posts into sentences, saying: "Muslims .... are dangerous .... go ... kill.... muslims", it would be logical to assume you wanted people to go kill muslims, because you've just said so in the various pieces of your various posts I put together; however stripped from their context they were?

Wow... another red herring.

Are you asserting that you need to cut and paste words out of various parts in the Bible in order to create a passage that says homosexuals are to be put to death? That's patently absurd

As for context, that's not an issue here, the language is plain. For example:

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Please demonstrate what other not-so-bad context this particular passage could be taken in, and how I am incorrectly labelling it as a passage that says kill the gays?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You have misquoted and apparently misunderstood me but Germany was punished for the deeper spiritual degeneration that was evident in both the toleration of homosexuality in the Weimar Republic and the holocaust of the Jews during the time of the Nazis.

Yeah, that's kind of ridiculous....

But you still miss the point. I understand that you object to the moral cases raised by most religious people against homosexuality. But again and again you have failed to argue a positive case for it. This shows me the emptiness of your position and implies that your real agenda is a rejection of religion and religious values. You war against God but you do not fight for anything positive.

Your question is as asinine as that of a Muslim apologist who asks for a positive moral reason for eating pork. When you tell him that you have no reason to morally oppose the consumption of pork, he says to you "You war against God but you do not fight for anything positive."

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The death penalty for homosexual actions is something that the Torah upholds and a great many religious Jews argue for. The people of Uganda are quite clear about the wrongness of homosexual acts and have chosen to deal with it with the death penalty. There is nothing immoral about that.

I've read some incredibly heartless things on CF, but this surely is the worst. Sickening.

 

[Genersis]

I've read some incredibly heartless things on CF, but this surely is the worst. Sickening.

I'd say second most, unfortunately.

 

[Marius27]

I've read some incredibly heartless things on CF, but this surely is the worst. Sickening.

And apparently, that constitutes appropriate "Christian" behavior. Somehow I don't think Jesus would call for genocide of gay people.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

The death penalty for homosexual actions is something that the Torah upholds and a great many religious Jews argue for. The people of Uganda are quite clear about the wrongness of homosexual acts and have chosen to deal with it with the death penalty. There is nothing immoral about that.

Its amazing you think killing people just for being gay is not immoral.

It makes me glad that Christianity is on the decline in the UK. Every year the odd's of someone with views like your own getting into power are slimmer and slimmer.

Nobody chooses to be gay, just like you didn't choose to be straight. You just are, and so are they.

Enjoy your slide in obscurity!

 

[Oafman]

I've read some incredibly heartless things on CF, but this surely is the worst. Sickening.

It is sickening. And to think that religion claims rights over morality, whilst promoting such blind hatred.

 

[mindlight]

There are few things more immoral in the world. It's utterly inhuman.

There is nothing immoral about punishing immoral acts. Whether or not most people would want to live in a society or legal regime where the earthly consequences of ones sins were so stark is another matter.

 

[mindlight]

2) And society also does not want to witness homosexual "marriage".

Yes that's an interesting point when the law affirms the marriage of two people it imputes social recognition onto the validity of that commitment. But there is no such social recognition from a significant proportion of society in the case of gay legal contracts of this sort.

Cameron spoke so much about the "Big Society" but with this one action he has placed a deep divide in it and maybe fractured it for generations to come.

 

[mindlight]

Did you ever stop to think the Scripture might be evil?

I have examined the authority of scripture quite deeply and been challenged on it frequently but remain convinced of this.

One can struggle with passages and especially in a culture such as our own where ones presupposition pool is most likely polluted with all sorts of Liberal nonsence but the truth remains.

You cannot and will not understand it if you hate the God that revealed these words.

Humans are indeed part of the animal kingdom. I don't get how you find that demeaning?

We are made in the image of God. You have missed the thing that distinguishes our cosmic significance from that of star dust.

 

[mindlight]

The same book also says the penalty for being an unruly child is death.

As such, when you were a child I'm sure there were times you were unruly. There is no statute of limitations set out in Jewish law, so I'm assuming you are ok if we take you out to the edge of town and stone you to death for your immorality as a child?

We do not live in a theocracy. But if you accept the murder of the unborn you already condone the genocide of children.

 

[mindlight]

I ignore them because there is no evidence your God exists, nor is there any evidence a persons biology has changed because of their religious belief. (Note Biology does not equal Behaviour)

Anyone who believes in Jesus's miracles (you clearly don't) can believe that biological change is possible but it is not necessary in the case of repentance from gay sex. The Christian moral view is that acts of gay sex are an abomination and someone who is attracted to a member of the same sex should not be having sex with them. In much the same way as a married hetrosexual man may be attracted to other women but should try as best he can to keep his thoughts under control and not to act on them and commit adultery.

It is clear that you do not believe in God as you could not say the things that you do if you did.

lol, yeah.... and Ted Haggard is completely heterosexual.

No he confesses to being bisexual in his attractions and it seems that he has masturbated in the presence of other men for instance but there is no evidence, that I am aware of, of physical contact sex with other men. Despite the scandals, hypocrisy and clear deceits that he has been guilty of he did commit himself to a process of renewal, he remained committed to his wife with whom he has had 5 kids. I doubt if he and I would differ on the biblical case against homosexual practice but clearly this is something he has had to struggle with and to a considerable extent in the most recent time period appears to have managed properly.

On one hand you are saying homosexuals are deserving of the death penalty, and on the other hand you're saying you rebuke them out of truth and love.

Yes there is no contradiction here.

 

[mindlight]

Then please explain why the other countries in Europe also suffered similar devastation, and catastrophic loss of life when this was an instance of Germany receiving punishment?

And why did this punishment occur over a decade after the fall of the Weimar republic, and after a strongly anti-homosexual government (The Nazis) had been in power?

If this issue was about Homosexuality, then God would have been backing the guys doing their most to limit and kill off the Homosexuals... and I can't imagine you're willing to argue that God was backing the Nazis?

"Noone is righteous not even one" which makes it interesting that people are often so surprised when devastation comes. Within living memory many of Europes cities were reduced to rubble and yet people act as if there is no consequence for sin.

The spiritual degeneration of Germany was evident even in the nineteenth century and the theological liberalism that much of Europe bought into in the late nineteenth century and which oriignated in Germany was the real root of the troubles of the twentieth century. Both Communism and Nazism and the current decadent Liberal Progressivism originate in the thoughts of those times.

So you think God is willing to kill off tens of millions of people on both sides (many of whom I'm sure were just as against homosexuality as you are), just to get the remaining Jews to move to and establish Israel?

Now please bring up a comparison that doesn't involve harm to one person so you aren't arguing from a position of Red Herrings.

I think God allowed an eruption of evil , the consequences of which was fully deserved both as a rebuke to the racism, spiritual degeneration ,deceitfulness and pride of Europes Christian churches and peoples and also to achieve his purpose not just for Israel but for the whole world.