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Featured So What Really Happened in Noah's Tent After the Flood?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jul 14, 2017.

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  1. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    His wife was not mentioned, so why assume anything about her?

    However what was mentioned is:
    Noah had planted a vineyard.
    Noah had drank from what the vineyard had produced.
    Noah drank so much he became drunk.
    All three of Noah's sons were in the vicinity of Noah's tent.
    Noah was in his own Tent.
    Noah's son Ham entered Noah's Tent, then told his brother's what he saw in the Tent.
    The brother's then entered the Tent without looking and covered what Ham had seen.

    This is not about parents bathing their "children". This is about adults viewing the nakedness of other adults, who are not husband and wife.

    Out of context.

    You are likely correct. It is common for societies to dictate what is acceptable according to them, without consideration if it is acceptable to God.

    Gen.6
    1. [9] These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
    I do not view Noah being drunk and being in his own private Tent as a sin.
    Never is it mentioned, that Noah stood against God, which would be a sin against God.

    Nowhere does the text say that Has was invited into his father's tent.

    No idea. Nor did I say Ham was ashamed. IMV Ham should have been ashamed, but that was not the point, nor mentioned by me.

    Again. What sin? I do not find Noah committing a sin.
    Did Noah stand against God? no
    Did Noah trespass against Anyone? no
    Did Noah drink excessively then prance around naked? no
    Did Noah lie in his own private tent uncovered? yes
    Did anything teach you in Scripture a threshold is a division between what belongs to one and not another? it should have

    Did Noah lie in his own private tent uncovered? yes
    And why do we even know this?
    Because Noah's own son crossed the threshold of Noah's private tent, saw his fathers nakedness and then went out and announced it.

    It doesn't matter why his son entered Noah's tent.
    It does matter that he did.
    It does matter that he then went out and announced what he saw.
    It is significant there is no scripture of Ham admitting his own self being ashamed.
    It is significant there is no scripture of Ham asking his father to forgive him.

    It is the father that teaches lessons.
    Ham was about 100 yrs old, and apparently had not learned when he should be ashamed, or to ask another for forgiveness when they trespass against another.

    Apparently Noah thought it appropriate for Ham to experience him to have his own son (Caanan) shame him (Ham), for Ham to grasp the understanding.

    That of course is simply speculative.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, I am not doubting that many of them were Giants or Nephilim. This shows you the corruption that has taken place since the beginning since the moment Noah cursed Canaan. Noah just did not randomly curse Canaan for no good reason. There was a good reason he did so. He knew what Ham did to his wife and he knew the future of their offspring (i.e. their evil and then their destruction). It all started with the evil in ham bringing forth seed that was not supposed to be a part of God's plan.


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  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I will reply later to you on this.

    May God bless you.


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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  4. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Verse please that Ham uncovered his father's "anything".

    Obviously I am requesting a verse in regard to something you claimed about Ham;
    not Saul, Jonathan, Jesse, father's, mother's, or the LORD God.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  5. Rhapsody

    Rhapsody Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm not being clear enough, but I understand what you're saying, and it still doesn't add up from what I can see in the rest of the Bible. Let's say it's true: if God covered it up, why dig it back up again?
     
  6. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Do you realize all that you have to add to the passage to make it say whay you want it to say? You are adding either a gap or a dream, Noah's wife, Noah and his wife getting it on, Ham and his mother getting it on, Noah somehow not only knowing there was a kid on the way, but also knowing it wasn't his kid even though they both supposedly slept with the same woman on the same night.

    At what point does it start getting absurd for you?
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am saying the story is hidden to those who know the Bible's special language. God does not want to dishonor Noah by scores of atheists and or unrespecting type Christians.



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  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am saying that Noah sleeping with his wife is one possibility as to why he is nude and I am saying that Noah immediately knowing what happened to him when he woke is best explained by the possibility of God giving Noah a dream. They are possibilties that seem the most probable given the facts that we are given. I did not say these things are facts but they are more than likely possibilities. I said this before that they are possibilities. So they are not hard core facts in the Bible. What I know is true is that Leviticus 20:11 sheds light on Genesis 9 and that Canaan was cursed as a result of that understanding.

    The problem with your view of the story is that it makes absolutely "zero sense."
    It is a mystery and the individuals in the story are not acting rationally or logical in any way as humans normally do. It is like they are aliens from another planet. But again, if it makes you feel better to believe something irrational, then by all means, go ahead and do that, my friend.


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    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I have already answered this post.
    But again, I do not think you will be interested in hearing the answer, anyways.
    You are desiring to see what you want to see.

    In any event, may the Lord bless you and keep you.


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  10. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    How am I the irrational one for believing it for what it says? You are the one adding all the story elements not mentioned in the text so you can understand it. It's all a product of your imagination.
     
  11. Rhapsody

    Rhapsody Well-Known Member

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    @Jason0047 May I ask what, in short, you most want us to take away from reading this? Thanks
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not at all. Leviticus 20:11 says,

    "And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall beupon them." (Leviticus 20:11).​

    his father's wife = his father's nakedness.

    Here is what it looks like in red (as it is stated in the text - with the Hebrew idiom or metaphor).

    Gen 9:20 "And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:"
    Gen 9:21 "And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
    Gen 9:22 "And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without."
    Gen 9:23 "And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness."
    Gen 9:24 "And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him."
    Gen 9:25 "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."​

    Now, here is what it looks like when we replace it with the actual meaning in blue (taken straight from Leviticus 20:11):

    Gen 9:20 "And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:"
    Gen 9:21 "And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
    Gen 9:22 "And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw [knew, or uncovered] his father's wife, and told his two brethren without."
    Gen 9:23 "And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered his father's wife; and their faces were backward, and they saw not his father's wife."
    Gen 9:24 "And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him."
    Gen 9:25 "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."​


    Side Note:

    Oh, and as for the word "saw" in the above passage as being "knew" or "uncovered." Well, Habakkuk 2:15 says, "Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!." Why on Earth do drunk people just stare upon their nakedness? That is very strange! It is more likely it is talking about sex here. To see something means to uncover that thing. For example: A person can cover their legs with blankets. But to uncover those blankets from that person means you get to see their legs. So to "uncover" something means to "see" that thing.

    So to...

    Uncover = To see.

    The word "uncover" in Leviticus 20:11 relates to sexual relations.
    In other words, if we let the Bible interpret the Bible, the story becomes clear.
    If one ignores the code key, they are confused so as to explain this story in what it is saying.
    Ignoring the Bible's version of slang makes this story irrational. One can forget about gaining any deeper meaning from this story through out the whole of Scripture.

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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  13. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Not so.
    Canaan the son of Ham is established twice before Ham sees the nakedness of his father.

    Gen 9
    [18] And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.

    Gen 9
    [21]
    And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
    [22] And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father,
    and told his two brethren without.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    What are we to take away from Noah and Ham's Story?

    So far, please check out:

    Post #69
    Poster #72

    May God bless you.


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    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So do you believe Genesis 1 is a different account than Genesis 2?
    They sound like two different accounts when you read them literally.
    But surely most Christians (including myself) do not read it that way.


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  16. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I could see that we were crossing wires, because you seemed to be saying what I thought and was saying. Once you understand the idiom, and realize that it's Cainan who is cursed, and realize (as you pointed out) that Noah had no more children, then it's obvious what happened.

    The only asterisk I put on the theory (and I do happen to believe it is as we have accounted it), is the strange description of Japheth and Shem walking backwards to cover their father's nakedness. so they wouldn't see it.

    Now that is really strange. It seems to apply to his actual nakedness, but there's nothing particularly shameful about seeing your sleeping father naked, or mother for that matter. Nor is there any commandment suggesting that it is.

    But if it has to do with the Hebrew idiom, and pertain's to their mother's infidelity, then the walking backwards bit is nonsensical.

    My sense is that we're dealing with idioms so old and so obscure that we're not going to make complete sense of it. Indeed, the idiom may have changed, with the outrage by Ham being the older story, using the "nakedness' to mean the sexual idiom, while a later redactor may have added the gloss about the other boys, to elevate them and denigrate Ham. And in the time of the later redactor, the older idiom may no longer have been use, so naked meant naked.

    In any case, it's an interesting case where good exegesis makes something that's otherwise just sort of strange come to life and make sense.
     
  17. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't mean that Canaan was already born. It tells us that Ham is the Father of Canaan. Then, in the drunkness episode, it tells us how that came to be - that Ham is the father of Canaan by way of Na'amah, Cain's grandaughter, who is Noah's wife and Ham's mother. The ancient author set up the drama already.
     
  18. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    I believe Gen 1 is a specific introduction of God and His works.
    I believe Gen 2 is giving more information to mankind, for mankind's benefit, that is specific to mankind and his provisions.
     
  19. Rhapsody

    Rhapsody Well-Known Member

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    :) Oh, to me a brief take away is actually very simple: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."

    I was wondering if you had a conclusion for the audience that is that succinct?
     
  20. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    It does mean Ham was established as Canaan's father before Ham saw Noah's nakedness.


    What drama? Noah had a wife and three sons. Drama? :scratch:

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
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