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Featured So What Really Happened in Noah's Tent After the Flood?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jul 14, 2017.

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  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In regards to the recent video posted on Noah's Ark:

    I cannot watch videos like that for too long because it angers me in the fact that they are misrepresenting God's Word at times. They are mocking God and His Word by giving false evidence. Granted, I believe God commands me to hate the sin and not the sinner of course.



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  2. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    What are the main distinctive races of Earth and how many are there ..
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Why do you ask?


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  4. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    never mind, but if Canaan was born to Mrs Noah and Ham would that make Noah his stepfather
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Here is an interesting part of an article on Ham's sin of sleeping with his mother:

    The way the text mentions over and over again that Ham is the father of Canaan is further evidence for this interpretation. “It is striking that Ham is named a father at the precise moment when he is introduced as a son (see Genesis 9:18). Later, at the transgression of Ham, exactly the same thing happens: ‘Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father’ (Genesis 9:22)” (Van Wolde, p.146). The text emphasizes that Ham became a father at the same time that he behaved badly.

    Finally, I must mention that Leviticus 18:3 admonishes the children of Israel to “not perform the practice of the land of Canaan” (aka, the culture of the descendants of Ham) including uncovering the “nakedness of one’s father.” Is it a coincidence that Canaan is mentioned exactly at the mention on incest laws? We see a similiar phrase used. The words, "Nakedness of his father" is used in both Genesis 9 and Leviticus 18. Both are talking about Canaan, too! Two coincidences?

    Mother and son incest is also the subject of Deuteronomy 27:20. Such incestuous acts were often about inner-family power struggles and it was usually an ambitious son who attempted to sexually compromise his mother.

    “Ham was trying to usurp his father’s authority by sleeping with his mother. Perhaps that’s why he told his brothers what he’d done, rather than keeping it a secret. This reflects a pattern found elsewhere in the Old Testament, especially where sons resent fathers for showing favor to siblings. For example, Jacob’s son Reuben sought to undermine his (Jacob’s) favored half-brother Joseph by taking his father’s concubine – for which he received a paternal curse (see Genesis 29:32; Genesis 35:22; Genesis 49:3-4). Likewise, Absalom resented the plans of his father, King David, to give the throne to one of his younger half-brothers, Solomon. In response, Absalom drove King David out of Jerusalem and then slept with his father’s concubines–right in public–to signify his seizure of royal power” (Hahn, pp. 87-8).


    Source:
    Noah’s Wife: A Second Eve


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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  6. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Another possibility Noah could have known what his son Ham had done unto him: It is possible that the Spirit of prophecy came upon him and, like dying Jacob, he tells his sons what shall befall them, Genesis 49:1. So it may not have necessarily had to have been a vision or dream exactly but God giving him an awareness of knowledge.


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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In addition:

    Here are some matching points between the narrative of Noah, his wife, and his son Ham, vs. the narrative of Lot and his two daughters:
    1. The two groups both lived around wicked people who are eventually erradicated by God by a miraclous judgment.
    2. The two groups are both saved because they were regarded as righteous at that time.
    3. Both fathers pass out drunk after God's judgment.
    4. Both fathers (as a result of their drunkenness) are involved in an incestous pregancy at the hand of their own children.
    5. Both groups centers around three people as a part of the incident.
    6. The two narratives over emphasize the names of the offspring of these evil children and they become the villians of Israel's Exodus from Egypt and their entry into the Promised Land.


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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It is very possible Ham wanted to assert his authority by sleeping with his own mother. His gloating about this to his two brothers was a way of showing his authority over them. But we know from the Bible that Noah said that Canaan's descendants would serve his two brothers instead.


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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So my encouragement is for us to always stay humble and not be like a Ham (who is seeking human power and authority). Follow Jesus. Do what is good and right. Allow Jesus to move in your life. For salvation is His name.




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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  11. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Repeating yourself is simply repeating yourself.
    I can plainly find 3 things in scripture you have said;
    But the other 3 things highlighted in red I do not find in scripture;
    Can you provide those three things you have said, in scripture?

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  12. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    I have read Gen 1 and 2 and did not come away with such belief.

    Your "Yet" is based upon your own rendering of what you think I should come away believing; but did not.

    Motivation? I simply trust what the scripture says.

    What is your major motivation for believing as you do on the story of Noah and Ham?

    I read AND study what interests me to delve into and ask God for His understanding.

    A revealing of what must shortly come to pass;

    Rev.1
    [1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    [2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
    [3] Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So it is a coincidence that both:

    #1. Canaan.
    #2. The phrase or idiom, "the nakedness of his father."

    Are mentioned in both Leviticus 18 and Genesis 9?



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  14. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Lev.20
    [1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying...
    [2] Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel,

    Lev 20:11
    [11] And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Lev.18
    [1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
    [2] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them,

    Lev 18:7
    [7] The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

    Again, please carefully re-read Leviticus.

    Take notice; Moses receiving the LAW from the LORD;
    THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO APPLY BEFORE THE LAW WAS GIVEN!

    My VERSION of the story IS what Scripture says.

    Scripture does not have to MAKE SENSE to a carnal mind!
    God is SPIRIT.
    What He desires you to do IS TRUST His Word, whether or not you understand it.
    When you can do that; then you are prepared to receive Gods Understanding.
    But continuing to CHALLENGE what is written, is simply revealing you don't trust it;
    precisely for the reason you claim.....it doesn't make sense; it's not logical.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  15. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Coincidence? No. Neither do I find it a coincidence that Canaan and nakedness is found in many other scriptures.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Which are all totally unrelated, right?
    Do you know what cross references are?


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  17. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    I did. Ham saw his father's nakedness - that's what is written in your English Bible. What is written in the Hebrew is "Ham had sex with his father's wife". The expression "saw his father's nakedness" - translated word for word - is a Hebrew idiom. It means "had sex with his faither's wife".
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Moses wrote all five books of the Torah!
    It was the same author who would have used similar idioms or figures of speech to express what certain things mean. So Genesis was not written by a different author at an earlier time to suggest your line of thinking here.

    What about Messianic prophecies?
    How does that work in your interpretation of wooden literalism of Scripture?
    Does not a story always mean what it says every time?

    1 John 2:20
    "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things."

    "The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple." (Psalms 119:130).

    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15).

    I do accept the Word as it is written. The problem is that you think your interpretation that ignores the Bible's idioms is the right way to go (When it is not). The Bible is full of Metonymy or figures of speech. Not knowing how to recognize this is a real problem in not properly understanding God's Word.

    As for logic:
    You have not properly given me anything to believe that is rational in any way.
    Your version of the story does not make sense no matter how many times you say the carnal mind cannot understand. That does not mean anything. You are just saying those words and not explaining anything.
    Explain the story in a rational way and I will consider what you have to say.
    So far, what you have said does not make any sense.


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  19. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    Here's my idiom, SBC sounds more like Shem and Japheth on the matter and you sound like Ham dancing around making something out of nothing .
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Hebrew word "רָאָה" (ra'ah) for the English word "saw" in Genesis 9:22 can also mean, "enjoy" (whereby we can see 4 other references for it). So one can read it as saying, Ham enjoyed the "nakedness of his father" (i.e. his father's wife).

    Strong's H72000

    For we can see "his father nakedness" = "his father's wife" in Leviticus 20,

    Leviticus 20:11
    "And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness:"

    Here it is in the traditional text in red:

    Gen 9:20 "And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
    Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
    Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
    Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
    Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
    Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."​

    And here is the text with the words exchanged using Leviticus 20, and the alternate word "enjoyed" for the word "saw.":

    Gen 9:20 "And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
    Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
    Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, enjoyed his father's wife, and told his two brethren without.
    Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered his father's wife; and their faces were backward, and they saw not his father's wife.
    Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
    Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."​


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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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