So What Really Happened in Noah's Tent After the Flood?

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We're just against nakedness in public.

Then the scenario of Ham seeing his father naked should not have meant anything then. Telling his brothers this would have been dumb. Can you imagine it?

Canaan: "Hey brothers, what's up?" "Guess what I did today?" "I seen our father naked today."

One of the brothers reply: "So. We all seen him naked before when we were kids." "What is your point?"​

See how silly that sounds?
It makes no sense.

Also, why would the brothers cover their father's nakedness if he was in the privacy of his own tent?

Again, it makes no sense.

Think my friend.

Put on your detective cap.
Think like a criminal investigator analyzing the facts of the scene.
What seems more likely?


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Lulav

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So What Really Happened in Noah's Tent After the Flood?

Leviticus 18:7 says,

"The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness."​


It is saying that the nakedness of his father (Noah) was Noah's wife.

So far so good. :)
Also, why was Canaan cursed?

Because God's written Word shows us that sleeping with one's mother is punishable by death!

Yes it is but that doesn't necessarily mean that was the case here.

Leviticus 20:11 says,

"And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.."​
We also have to realize here that discovering "nakedness" is a euphemism for sexual relations. This makes Genesis 9 all the more clear.

So if we were to summarize the story in these verses:

Gen 9:20 Noah begins making wine.
Gen 9:21 Noah gets drunk and passes out naked (more than likely because he got frisky with his wife as a result of his drunkenness).
Gen 9:22 Ham (father of Canaan is highlighted) seeing that his father is incapacitated makes advances on his mother. After all, sex is pleasurable, men tend to desire multiple partners, not many women are available after a global flood, and his mother is probably still attractive due to pre-flood aging conditions. He gloats of his conquest to his brothers.
Gen 9:23 The brothers try damage control. They cover up their mother (is she drunk also?). The Bible tends to omit relevant facts about woman in Genesis (what was her name?).
Gen 9:24 Noah comes back into consciousness and finds out or realizes that his wife was violated by Ham.



Gen 9:25-26 Then Noah curses Canaan and or the new nation that will be formed from this union.​

The verse 22 highlighting of Ham as Canaan’s father makes sense if the Jewish reader understood the incestuous origin of Canaan. This would also be an anachronistic clarification that would be very helpful to the reader in this circumstance. Otherwise, it makes very little sense.

The facts point to Canaan being the result of an incestuous relationship between Noah’s wife and Ham.

In fact, we see this event repeated in the Bible elsewhere.

Lot's Daughters get Lot drunk and they take advantage of him and they get pregnant. God destroyed both the nations (offspring) of the result of Canaan and from the two daughters of Lot. Death is the punishment for incest according to God's Word (Leviticus 20:11).


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Canaan was the result of Ham's relationship with his father's wife. That doesn't necessarily mean that it was his mother. It is most probable that Noah's wife at that time was not the mother of the three boys but instead a second or even third wife.

This also may explain why Canaan was cursed and how they ended up being the enemy of Israel.

Jacob had two wives and they each had a concubine. His first son Reuben went into his fathers bed with his concubine Bilhah. She was not his mother but she was considered his' Fathers wife.
 
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4x4toy

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Then the scenario of Ham seeing his father naked should not have meant anything then. Telling his brothers this would have been dumb. Can you imagine it?

Canaan: "Hey brothers, what's up?" "Guess what I did today?" "I seen our father naked today."

One of the brothers reply: "So. We all seen him naked before when we were kids." "What is your point?"​

See how silly that sounds?
It makes no sense.

Also, why would the brothers cover their father's nakedness if he was in the privacy of his own tent?

Again, it makes no sense.

Think man.

Put on your detective cap.
Think like a criminal investigator analyzing the facts of the scene.
What seems more likely?


...

So far so good. :)


Yes it is but that doesn't necessarily mean that was the case here.




Canaan was the result of Ham's relationship with his father's wife. That doesn't necessarily mean that it was his mother. It is most probable that Noah's wife at that time was not the mother of the three boys but instead a second or even third wife.

This also may explain why Canaan was cursed and how they ended up being the enemy of Israel.

Jacob had two wives and they each had a concubine. His first son Reuben went into his fathers bed with his concubine Bilhah. She was not his mother but she was considered his' Fathers wife.

So now Noah kicked his wife off the boat then fished another one out ? :scratch:
 
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Lulav

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So now Noah kicked his wife off the boat then fished another one out ? :scratch:
That's not what I said. She probably died after the three sons Shem, Ham and Japhet were born and he took himself another wife sometime in those 100 years he was building the ark.
 
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4x4toy

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That's not what I said. She probably died after the three sons Shem, Ham and Japhet were born and he took himself another wife sometime in those 100 years he was building the ark.

If we're gonna add to the story I like mine better ''loose lips sink ships'' ^_^
 
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What silence? It tells us plainly who was naked in the tent.

You are saying that it is impossible for such to happen when it does not conflict with the text. In fact, it illuminates God's Word as a whole. But you are free to believe something that does not make any sense if you wish.

You said:
What it doesn't say is anything about Noah getting 'frisky' with his wife. That's something you are adding to make it fit the narrative you are proposing. There's no gap, no wife, no incest, no dream, and no getting 'frisky' anywhere in the text.

It is called logical deduction based on the facts presented to us.

#1. It is a fact man likes to have sex with women or their wife when they are drunk.

#2. God communicated the future once before with Noah.

#3. The text says,
“And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.” (Genesis 9:24).

How did Noah know about what happened to him after he woke up? Even if his butt was soar, how would he really know? How did he not wake up during such abuse? How would he know if he was being watched while he was being naked? The text says "Noah...knew" after he woke up. How did he just know after waking up?

A dream from God is the most logical conclusion; Especially looking at Noah's past track record with God. For God told Noah about the future before.


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If we're gonna add to the story I like mine better ''loose lips sink ships''

It is not an addition to the story. Leviticus 18:7 tells us what the idiom "nakedness of the father" really means.

Many people today read the Bible without understanding the metaphors or the figures of speech that it uses.

Jesus spoke in parables.

Why?

"That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand..." (Mark 4:12).


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SBC

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Logical conclusions are most excellent for a carnal mind.

However it is the heart; not the mind which God changes and feeds with His Truth.
And thereafter one does not have to rely on the imaginations and logical conclusions of their carnal mind.

Rom.8
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:

God Bless,
SBC
 
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2Cor.10
  1. [5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Casting down all imaginations that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

So what knowledge am I presenting that exalts itself above the knowledge of God here?

We see a similar thing happen with Lot and his two daughters.

We see the idiom is confirmed by reading Leviticus 18:7.

Oh and here is the the context - BTW.

“Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,” (2 Corinthians 10:15).


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Logical conclusions are most excellent for a carnal mind.

However it is the heart; not the mind which God changes and feeds with His Truth.
And thereafter one does not have to rely on the imaginations and logical conclusions of their carnal mind.

Rom.8
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:

God Bless,
SBC

Thank you for the insult.
May the Lord's love shine upon you today.


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Have you ever got drunk and did something that was out of your character ? Have you ever been exposed by a loudmouth by things you did but were ashamed of ? But by your own son ?

No. Your not looking at the scene like a criminal investigator and examining all the facts logically. Noah said he knew what his son did to him after he woke up. The only way Noah could know this is only by a revelation from God.


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Guess what? I saw what you said before editing your post.But I appreciate you going back and making "nice". Thanks.

Your welcome.
I try not to come off as an adversary but as a friend. Sometimes it is frustrating when folks don't see what you see. But I have to take a step back and realze all things must be done so as to glorify Jesus.

For it is all about Jesus.



...
 
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4x4toy

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No. Your not looking at the scene like a criminal investigator and examining all the facts logically. Noah said he knew what his son did to him after he woke up. The only way Noah could know this is only by a revelation from God.


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I know a little bit about drunk .. Besides the wives had nothing else to do so they were probably all at Wal-Mart shopping for picture frames or something ..
 
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JackRT

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We are speaking of a society which had a strong taboo against any sort of a public expression of sexuality. This was so extreme that Hebrew even lacked terms for certain body parts or sexual activities. As a consequence they used euphemisms instead. The term "uncovering thy father's nakedness" seems a likely euphemism for sex with your father's wife. It makes more sense than a straight literal reading.
 
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Casting down all imaginations that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

So what knowledge am I presenting that exalts itself above the knowledge of God here?

...

I said nothing about your knowledge. However I have noticed comments of your imaginations.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Scripture is not about satisfying ones senses.

"How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth." (Psalms 119:103).

You said:
Scripture is solely about giving you knowledge, that you can trust to believe or not.

Actually,

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Ham seeing his father naked was not a crime. It was a SHAME unto Noah. The lesson is; what a mans child DOES can be a SHAME unto the father.
The bigger lesson is; that also applies spiritually; that a human man CAN be a SHAME unto Father God.

That makes no sense. God the Father is not ashamed of us if we do not sin. It is only when we sin, God is ashamed of us. This is why we need Jesus.

Noah curses Ham's son for what he had done. This is more than just shame that is happening here.

You said:
The SHAME against Noah was committed BY Noah's youngest son.
The CURSE against Ham, was that his own youngest son (Caanan) would as well be a SHAME unto Ham.

In what way? Why?
Why punish an innocent child for his father simply looking at the nakedness of his own father? It makes no sense.

You said:
You are attempting to apply LAWS given in Lev. to men and a situation that occurred BEFORE that LAW was given.

And that makes sense to you?

And you think my understanding is idiotic?

God Bless your little heart.
SBC

News flash: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy were all written by Moses under the inspiration of God.


...
 
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So What Really Happened in Noah's Tent After the Flood?

Here is the story in Genesis 9.

Gen 9:20 "And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Gen 9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."​

Leviticus 18:7 says,

"The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness."​

So we have:

Thy father's wife = thy father's nakedness.

So when Genesis 9:22 says,

"And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, "​

It is saying that the nakedness of his father (Noah) was Noah's wife.
It is talking about Noah's wife!
This is done for the obvious reason so as not to humilate her within the Scriptures.

Also, why was Canaan cursed?

Because God's written Word shows us that sleeping with one's mother is punishable by death!

Leviticus 20:11 says,

"And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.."​

We also have to realize here that discovering "nakedness" is a euphemism for sexual relations. This makes Genesis 9 all the more clear.

So if we were to summarize the story in these verses:

Gen 9:20 Noah begins making wine.
Gen 9:21 Noah gets drunk and passes out naked (more than likely because he got frisky with his wife as a result of his drunkenness).
Gen 9:22 Ham (father of Canaan is highlighted) seeing that his father is incapacitated makes advances on his mother. After all, sex is pleasurable, men tend to desire multiple partners, not many women are available after a global flood, and his mother is probably still attractive due to pre-flood aging conditions. He gloats of his conquest to his brothers.
Gen 9:23 The brothers try damage control. They cover up their mother (is she drunk also?). The Bible tends to omit relevant facts about woman in Genesis (what was her name?).
Gen 9:24 Noah comes back into consciousness and finds out or realizes that his wife was violated by Ham.

***[A Lapse or a Gap in Time]***
(For an example of an unexplained gap in time, see Matthew 3:13 and compare with Matthew 2)

Gen 9:25-26 Then Noah curses Canaan and or the new nation that will be formed from this union.​

The verse 22 highlighting of Ham as Canaan’s father makes sense if the Jewish reader understood the incestuous origin of Canaan. This would also be an anachronistic clarification that would be very helpful to the reader in this circumstance. Otherwise, it makes very little sense.

In Summary, the literalist story is different:

Gen 9:20 Noah begins making wine.
Gen 9:21 Noah gets drunk.
Gen 9:22 Ham walks into Noah’s tent and sees him naked. Ham then has perverted thoughts or has some sort of debased enjoyment (Literalists claim this with no textual evidence).
Gen 9:23 The brothers walk into the tent backwards and cover up their naked father.
Gen 9:24 Noah comes back into consciousness and figures out that Ham saw him naked (how? The text does not tell, so the literalist must think this happened by magic).
Gen 9:25-26 He curses a baby/child/young boy for the sin of the father presumably because the son was wicked (though the text never indicates this).​

Note the time lapse between verses 24 and 25 in this version as well. Did Noah wake up, realize what had happened and then proclaim a curse all without talking to the brothers or even leaving the tent? Some sort of time lapse is indicated in the sentence. Storytellers use time lapses for convenience.

In short, those who claim that Ham merely saw his father naked have no explanation for Canaan’s curse and end up claiming that God curses children for the sins of their fathers. They also end up believing that multi-generational curses can be levied for mere sight of something that naturally occurs in human beings (nakedness). They also violate their own interpretation rules with candor. The facts point to Canaan being the result of an incestuous relationship between Noah’s wife and Ham.

In fact, we see this event repeated in the Bible elsewhere.

Lot's Daughters get Lot drunk and they take advantage of him and they get pregnant. God destroyed both the nations (offspring) of the result of Canaan and from the two daughters of Lot. Death is the punishment for incest according to God's Word (Leviticus 20:11).


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was Canaan the child of Ham and Noah’s wife

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Ham had sex with his mother, and that gave rise to the child, Cainan, by his mother. That's why even though it was Ham who "saw his father's nakedness", Noah cursed Cainan, the child of union that proved it happened.

Unfortunately the perfect symmetry of this explanation, which makes the most sense giving the Jewish idiom (to "uncover the nakedness" of somebody was to sleep with that person, or that person's spouse), is broken by the fact that Japheth and Shem are said to have walked backwards to not look, and covered their father's nakedness. That certainly doesn't fit the "Ham slept with Na'amah" thought that would make the nakedness business make sense.
 
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I know a little bit about drunk .. Besides the wives had nothing else to do so they were probably all at Wal-Mart shopping for picture frames or something ..

I was at Walmart yesterday.


...
 
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