So Hell isn't eternal?

[drich0150]

Originally Posted by bibleblevr

First off, hell is not eternal it is a just and fair punishment for the crimes we have done against God. When the punishment is over we have perished, and are gone, not tortured some more. this idea has been used over and over to try to scare people into Christianity, but it is a lie. many well meaning people believe it, but it is simply not taught in the Bible.

Well that subject deserves a whole new tread otherwise this one will get derailed. In the interest of Christian cohesion in this thread and in the interest of sticking with the topics at hand, I probably should not have mentioned my annihilation stance. But if you want to talk about it, feel free to PM me, I did a study on this issue fairly recently so I can definitely rustle up some good verses/ arguments for you if you like.


​

I believe there are many suffering from the Idea that Hell is eternal, (Myself included.) so in light of this and your desire to not disrupt another's thread i think it best to share your scriptures with all of us, here in this thread so it can be openly discussed.

 

[Van]

Hi Folks, on the one hand many Christians sign up for the eternal torment view of Gehenna in the Lake of Fire. Certainly Satan will suffer eternal torment in that Lake.
And on the other hand, some folks believe the spirits of the lost are annihilated immediately upon physical death. Neither of these views are biblical. In the middle we have some folks who believe in "eternal punishment" but by that they mean eternal separation from God. They base this upon the slender thread that the root Greek word translated "punishment" refers to confinement rather than torment. These folks say the Biblical requirement for "eternal punishment" is satisfied by eternal separation, whether or not the person is suffering torment or has been annihilated.

Certainly the Bible teaches the lost will be punished (suffer torment) for their misdeeds. So in the middle of the middle ground view, we have torment sufficient to provide justice in the eyes of God, which varies from individual to individual, followed by annihilation. This view of the afterlife of the lost provides perfect justice for all, yet is consistent with every scripture addressing the subject.

For example, scripture says that humans suffer torment day and night and the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever (Revelation 14:10-11). The eternal torment folks make two inferences about this passage, first that the punishment applies to all the lost, rather than just those living during the time the "Beast" is upon the earth and who take the mark of the Beast, and second, they believe that to have smoke rising forever of their torment equates with on going torment forever. But neither of these inferences is necessary. The "smoke" could refer to the consequence of being tormented in the lake of fire, which is eternal separation from God. And getting no rest day and night could refer only to the period of actual torment rather than eternity.

 

[RibI]

I believe there are many suffering from the Idea that Hell is eternal, (Myself included.) so in light of this and your desire to not disrupt another's thread i think it best to share your scriptures with all of us, here in this thread so it can be openly discussed.

Suffer no longer "drich0150" the truth is here to set you free. "Truth"...hum...sounds like a super hero...cool.

The punishment of the incorrigibly wicked is eternal death (that is, to never live again) not eternal life being tortured. That is eternal punishment, not eternal punishing!

Examples of what happens to the incorrigibly wicked can be read in many places in the Bible.

Ro.6:23 and Jo.3:16 say much the same thing.
Ro.6:23 For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jo.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish BUT have everlasting life. Notice that DEATH or PERISHING is spoken of in contrast to eternal LIFE! Death or perishing is not speaking about life some where else doing something else. Notice also that eternal life is God’s gift. It is not something that we are born with! If God does not give us eternal life we can not get it for ourselves.

Before we read Ezk.18:4,20 we need to go back to Genesis. A misunderstanding of the word “soul” is at the crux of much of this misunderstanding. The word translated soul in Gen.2:7 is “Nephesh” (neh’-fesh) the word means a living creature, not something in us, that has its own life apart from us. The first time the word is used in the Bible is Gen.1:21 and is speaking about whales and other animals. This word is continually used to refer to animals of every kind. A few examples can be found in Gen.1:21,24 2:19, 9:10 and on and on. When it is used in Gen.2:7, man becomes a (nephesh) a living creature or a living soul. Man is not given a “nephesh,” he is one.

So now that we understand what a soul is and what it is not we can begin to understand Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4 speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH, eternal punish-MENT; NOT eternal punish-ING.

There is only one being that would perpetuate the lie that God would torment people forever for one short life time of sin. That may be the way Satan would do things if he was in charge, but thank God Satan is not in charge, God is. Eternal punishing is Satan’s fate and he would like us to think it is our fate too.

 

[agape101]

I believe there are many suffering from the Idea that Hell is eternal, (Myself included.) so in light of this and your desire to not disrupt another's thread i think it best to share your scriptures with all of us, here in this thread so it can be openly discussed.

There is no purpose in punishment for a time period, only to result in annihilation. What would the point of that be? Just annihilate them right off the bat....

If you're going to call it punishment- then it needs to be justified with some sort of result..., punishment without chance for behavior modification is not punishment- that is the point of punishment / chastisement- either punish for improved results or annihilate the person. neverending punishment, needless to say, isn't punishment....

 

[RibI]

There is no purpose in punishment for a time period, only to result in annihilation. What would the point of that be? Just annihilate them right off the bat....

If you're going to call it punishment- then it needs to be justified with some sort of result..., punishment without chance for behavior modification is not punishment- that is the point of punishment / chastisement- either punish for improved results or annihilate the person. neverending punishment, needless to say, isn't punishment....

The death penalty is punishment. That's why it's called a PENALTY.
Ask anyone on death row if they think their execution is punishment.
If you were going to be executed I'm sure you would think it was punishment.
Death is the ultimate punishment.

 

[bibleblevr]

Suffer no longer "drich0150" the truth is here to set you free. "Truth"...hum...sounds like a super hero...cool.

The punishment of the incorrigibly wicked is eternal death (that is, to never live again) not eternal life being tortured. That is eternal punishment, not eternal punishing!

Examples of what happens to the incorrigibly wicked can be read in many places in the Bible.

Ro.6:23 and Jo.3:16 say much the same thing.
Ro.6:23 For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jo.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish BUT have everlasting life. Notice that DEATH or PERISHING is spoken of in contrast to eternal LIFE! Death or perishing is not speaking about life some where else doing something else. Notice also that eternal life is God’s gift. It is not something that we are born with! If God does not give us eternal life we can not get it for ourselves.

Before we read Ezk.18:4,20 we need to go back to Genesis. A misunderstanding of the word “soul” is at the crux of much of this misunderstanding. The word translated soul in Gen.2:7 is “Nephesh” (neh’-fesh) the word means a living creature, not something in us, that has its own life apart from us. The first time the word is used in the Bible is Gen.1:21 and is speaking about whales and other animals. This word is continually used to refer to animals of every kind. A few examples can be found in Gen.1:21,24 2:19, 9:10 and on and on. When it is used in Gen.2:7, man becomes a (nephesh) a living creature or a living soul. Man is not given a “nephesh,” he is one.

So now that we understand what a soul is and what it is not we can begin to understand Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4 speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH, eternal punish-MENT; NOT eternal punish-ING.

There is only one being that would perpetuate the lie that God would torment people forever for one short life time of sin. That may be the way Satan would do things if he was in charge, but thank God Satan is not in charge, God is. Eternal punishing is Satan’s fate and he would like us to think it is our fate too.

Great post, you cited many of my favorite Annihilationist verses

Many christians belive that the soul in indestructible or immortal, but that is an idea from the greeks and adopted by some early fathers like Augustine. the Bible clearly states the soul can die and it is not just death, but destruction: Mathew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

If souls where not destroyed in hell why would Jesus make this statement?

Speaking of Jesus's teaching on hell, Jesus most always used the word Gehenna in place of hell. Gehenna was a real place that he was referring to, it was the place where all of Jerusalem burnt their trash and most importantly had to deposed of diseased animal or human carcases in.

that was the image Jesus was trying to give when he described hell. the fire was always kept going so in a sense was eternal, but the stuff thrown in was meant to be consumed and completely burnt up. the diseased animals where meant to be deposed of so nothing else could be effected. in the same way sinners who are diseased by sin are disposed of in our hell so the new Jerusalem is not effected. furthermore in the area where little worms that ate what ever was not consumed.

then there is the fact that when God set up his last justice system on earth with Moses, we find torture rarely if ever used. what is the penalty for most large crimes is ether death or exile. that is exactly what God plans to make hell, it is a place of death and exile. God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow and that is what he saw as just before why should torture be thrown into the mix?

finally, God made us in his image and our basic moral code is from him this is what causes even non-Christians to be able to discern right and wrong( for the most part). Most everyone I have ever talked too believes that eternal torment is an evil act. torture is only done by bad men it is an unnatural act of anger and cruelty, it is opposed by better men. and the best man, Christ would surely move along the same continum and hate torture right? All Christians long for justice to be restored and the new world to come, punishment for wrongs is definitely part of that, but keeping people alive for ever in order to burn them does not seem to fit.

 

[Stryder06]

Eternal hell contradicts the God of the bible. The teaching is bogus and horrendous to say the least. The life of man is but for a brief period. How would it be justifiable to eternally torment someone for a few years of disobedience?

 

[drich0150]

The finality or the eternal nature of Hell still stands whether you believe it is a place of torture, lake(s) of fire, a second death, eternal imprisonment or a separation from God.

My direct question was to the specific verses that has some of us believing that Hell is a revolving door prison. Where we go for a time and then once our sentence is over we rejoin the ranks.

I not looking for any more interpretation I want Chapter and verse scripture, and then I want to ask questions on those verses.

 

[Stryder06]

The finality or the eternal of Hell still stands whether you believe it is a place of torture, lake(s) of fire, a second death, eternal imprisonment or a separation from God.

My direct question was to the specific verses that has some of us believing that Hell is a revolving door prison. Where we go for a time and then once our sentence is over we rejoin the ranks.

I not looking for any more interpretation I want Chapter and verse scripture, and then I want to ask questions on those verses.

Are you asking for the verses that teach that people get out of hell? I haven't read any such verse in the bible.

 

[drich0150]

Are you asking for the verses that teach that people get out of hell? I haven't read any such verse in the bible.

Neither have I.

 

[Pythons]

1st, "the fire" is everlasting.

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire

In the same way a Christian who is saved will experience everlasting life.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life

It's the same word with the same meaning. Adventist groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day & Seventh-day Adventists teach that hell is temporary process in which the lost will be burned up and become as if they never were. It sounds like a very nice, appealing teaching but in fact is against Jesus' teaching on the subject.

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

That's it right there - if the Adventist groups are correct Judas would have nothing more to worry about as anyone else would because he would "become as if he were never born" after the Adventist hell has worked it magic. Judas, in effect, would become as if he were never born & that's a direct contradiction to Jesus' very words.

Back to the point, it's the FIRE that is everlasting.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

And,

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Does God punish people so that they become as if they never were in the 1st place?

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth

If your Kid does something wrong you may "ground them" or "give them a spanking". Eventually if one makes the choice to reject Christ in total God keeps them under everlasting punishment. It can not be said that person who was sent to jail for life and died there is still under punishment after they died in jail.

 

[bibleblevr]

My direct question was to the specific verses that has some of us believing that Hell is a revolving door prison. Where we go for a time and then once our sentence is over we rejoin the ranks.

I don't know of anyone who believes that people get out of Hell.

 

[Pythons]

I don't know of anyone who believes that people get out of Hell.

All Adventist groups teach that each individual will get out when they are burned up and reach the point where they are as if they never existed in the first place. I.e. there is nothing left of the person as nothing of that person (soul or body) exists any longer.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Hell and the suffering of the damned "eternally" have always been taught by the Churches.

Teaching otherwise is teaching un-orthodox theology.

Forgive me...

 

[Yab Yum]

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

 

[Pythons]

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

The same guy promulgated "UNIVERSAL SALVATION" claiming that the Bible proved everyone eventually gets saved so obviously the fires of hell can't be everlasting because in the end everyone gets saved. Also, a very nice idea but VERY UN-Orthodox. For the most part Adventist groups no longer use this guy because it backfires on them.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Perhaps this should be moved to the un-orthodox theogy section?

Forgive me...

 

[Livindesert]

Perhaps this should be moved to the un-orthodox theogy section?

Forgive me...

I'd say so. But then again this is a multi-Christian forum so unless CF goes to support only one denomination it makes it hard to call threads out.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Are you asking for the verses that teach that people get out of hell? I haven't read any such verse in the bible.

I've heard a minority Protestant view that Hell is a temporary state, not annihilationism but something of a Protestant Purgatory. It might also be compared to Origen's view of universal reconciliation.

Catholics and Orthodox believe in a third, temporary state, between Heaven and Hell as the soul ascends to Heaven. There are various understandings of it, as spiritual things are sometimes quite difficult to express with words (Jesus and Paul use a great many analogies for that reason). Anglicans pray for the dead in their liturgy but individual Anglicans may have a Western Catholic, an Eastern Orthodox or even a more Protestant view of the afterlife. Catholics define it dogmatically as Purgatory, where recompense is "paid to the last penny" for those who die with venial sins but not mortal sins (which, by their definition, send the soul to Hell -- Do not pass Go, Do not collect $500):

Be at agreement with your adversary betimes, whilst you are in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison. Amen I say to you, you shall not go out from thence till you repay the last farthing.

For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

St. Catherine of Siena writes of Purgatory (God the Father speaking to St. Catherine):

Let such as these receive the eternal pains, with their horrible stench, inasmuch as they have not satisfied for their sins with contrition and displeasure of their guilt. Now, therefore, thou hast understood how suffering satisfies for guilt by perfect contrition, not through the finite pain; and such as have this contrition in perfection satisfy not only for the guilt, but also for the penalty which follows the guilt, as I have already said when speaking in general; and if they satisfy for the guilt alone, that is, if, having abandoned mortal sin, they receive grace, and have not sufficient contrition and love to satisfy for the penalty also, they go to the pains of Purgatory, passing through the second and last means of satisfaction.

St. Catherine of Genoa writes in her short but exquisite "Treatise on Purgatory", writes:

As a covered surface can never reflect the sun, not through any defect in that orb, but simply from the resistance offered by the covering, so, if the covering be gradually removed, the surface will by little and little be opened to the sun and will more and more reflect his light.

So it is with the rust of sin, which is the covering of the soul. In purgatory the flames incessantly consume it, and as it disappears, the soul reflects more and more perfectly the true sun who is God.

There is a distinct difference between Purgatory and Hell. Purgatory is the journey to Heaven and Hell is eternal separation. If I was on a journey to New York City starting in Seattle, Hell is being on the No Fly List and Purgatory is actually getting on that airplane to NYC.

Some people might think that Hell is "unfair". "Bibleblevr" above said that:

Most everyone I have ever talked too believes that eternal torment is an evil act. torture is only done by bad men it is an unnatural act of anger and cruelty, it is opposed by better men.

But God's Justice is God's Justice. People choose for themselves whether they want God or sin -- whether they are eternally tormented in Hell or in eternal bliss in Heaven. For God to take away Man's freedom to make that decision would be a greater evil than allowing him to sin. The Door is open, the Bridge is built, the Veil is rent. There is forgiveness of sins through the Blood of Christ.

But if people do not follow the straight and narrow path to life, if they do not enter the Gate, if they do not go through that Door, they meet the eternal consequences of their sins:

Seeing it is a just thing with God to repay tribulation to them that trouble you: And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with the angels of his power: In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power

 

[Livindesert]

I'd say so. But then again this is a multi-Christian forum so unless CF goes to support only one denomination it makes it hard to call threads out.

Example of this is the Protoevangleium of James. I consider it a non-cannonical/Apostate book that has severly damaged early Christian thought. But I know many people who consider themselfs "Orthodox" who would disagree with me.